The BMS (when it is balancing and a cell reaches its upper voltage) commands the charge controller to reduce current to match the balancing current. That gives the BMS maximum time to balance cells.
Last fire.. :-(
- Thread starter Frank in Thailand
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The BMS (when it is balancing and a cell reaches its upper voltage) commands the charge controller to reduce current to match the balancing current. That gives the BMS maximum time to balance cells.
So that is a fancy feature of advanced BMSs and charge controllers that requires a communication protocol between them, right?
SCC floats down to the point that the high cell or cells are being bled while the others are not at which point the SCC tells the BMS what constant current it should supply so that the high cells are held in place while the others slowly charge up to match them.
Sound fantastic, but awfully complicated (and expensive) and I’m honestly not sure it’s worth much of anything to those of us with pedestrian solar applications.
I want to charge up my battery every day (never getting close to full). I want to drain it every night. I want to avoid my BMS going into brutal and sudden LVD so I want my cells bottom-balanced rather than top balanced.
After shutdown for the night (with an empty battery), I want my active balancer to even up all of the depleted cells as best it can so that I can avoid LVD the next day.
While I can see that the smart tech you are describing would be useful for applications that typically charge to 100% (or whatever) and maintain a full battery (for backup or whatever), a smart SCC can’t really help with bottom balancing after the sun has gone down…
Hedges
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I think it is very simple. BMS just says what voltage it wants applied by SCC.
My Sunny Island + Sunny Island Charger (Midnight Classic supports same) have a similar function for lead-acid.
If Sunny Island is off, the SCC determines charging voltage (based on its settings and temperature sensor).
If Sunny Island is on, it communicates by CAN bus to SCC what voltage to drive.
That's it.
(Although it can also read parameters from SCC)
With BMS requesting a low enough voltage that current accepted by full cells doesn't drive their voltage higher (equal current bled off by balancing process), the full cells remain at constant voltage while low cells continue to charge.
You do similar at bottom, but with active balancer you put current into lowest cells without adding current to the others.
"At night" - I suppose you draw that from grid? Or do you draw off 48V pack, draining cells, while charging the lowest ones.
Yes, makes sense. For an off-grid system where PV is typically overpowered compared to average daily consumption and you want to maintain batteries at max SOC on high-production days, using an extended (and smart) float phase to level out all the cells as perfectly as possible would be the way to go (and if the protocol has been standardized, shouldn’t cost that much…).
By definition, any time an SCC and a BMS need to communicate, it’s less ‘simple’ (which typically translates to higher-end which typically translates to more $$$).
I spent under $100 for my 300A Heltec (dumb) BMS and $250 for my 60A (dumb) Epever SCC. They don’t communicate anything to each other (except that when the BMS disconnects external P- ground from the internal B- ground of the battery, the SCC listens
). My guess is that your CAN-capable Sunny Island set up cost you a pretty penny more…Yeah, understand the concept and it’s nice capability (if the price is right or you need it, such as for an off-grid rig).
I’ve just started playing with my new system and at the moment, I’m connecting the active balancer manually while I figure out how often it’s needed.
If I only need to use it once a month or less, I’ll probably stick to that simple ‘maintainance mode’ but it supports a switch so it I need to use it nightly, I may eventually hook up to some sort of controller (ie: battery voltage below ‘X’ or maximum cell voltage below ‘Y’).
Hedges
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Agreed. I avoid communication as much as possible.
Analog would be simpler. If BMS delivered a voltage proportional to what it wanted, and SCC accepted a voltage input, regulating to a multiple of that, just a resistor-divider could scale between them (if BMS language is equal or higher voltage.)
A Mass Spectrometer company I worked for implemented a digital communication protocol. I said they should just drive a few channels of DAC according to the molecular concentrations they measured, plus a couple handshake logic ports ("Start", "Valid", etc.) A control systems guy might know "Ladder Logic" and could tell a PLC to control equipment in order to regulate an analog input. (e.g. adjust burner parameters so NOx measured in exhaust is minimized). But speaking a foreign digital protocol is a lot to ask.
I spent under $100 for my 300A Heltec (dumb) BMS and $250 for my 60A (dumb) Epever SCC. They don’t communicate anything to each other (except that when the BMS disconnects external P- ground from the internal B- ground of the battery, the SCC listens
Couple of zeros ...
Just an interface card to convert protocols costs what one of your devices does. (Chips are less, but low-volume assembled & tested product always more.)
The SCC has temperature sensor. That ought to be configured for target voltage adjustment. It is for lead-acid, not for lithium. Maybe with dummy lead-acid settings targeting lithium voltage, it would work. Most SCC have that. Probably no BMS do, would require a uP talking to it and driving DAC.
I think that for a budget build you can get similar reliability using "dumb" components this way.
- Build 2 packs with their own BMS/disconnect.
- Use conservative charge/discharge limits
- Perform a weekly check of the voltage/balance during peak charging.
Yeah, my little budget rig is just for time-shifting what we typically consume during the peak window (as well as to make up for the ~17% reduction is solar credit they are imposing on my 5-year-old NEM system).
My Epever SCC has two voltage-programmable relays, so that provides a very crude level of ‘communication’.
I could use one to activate my active balancer once the battery is empty (SCC’s LVD) but I’m using both relays for other applications currently and am hoping to find an easy alternative.
Worst-case, I make a little circuit to close a relay whenever battery voltage is below a programmable threshold (though I would like some hysteresis, so two thresholds would be better).
But I’m still in the process of characterizing how often I actually need to connect the balancer to keep things humming along.
First time I’ve actually been in a position to actually assess the quality of the 16 280Ah Eve cells I bought…
Hedges
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I've put hysteresis in op-amp circuits with a diode that puts current through an additional feedback resistor.
Capacitors to delay response. This was an overload detector that shut off an RF amp if it failed to reach intended amplitude in circuit (e.g. due to mismatch.)
I also learned that there are "comparator" ICs which while similar to op-amp, behave a bit differently.
If an op-amp is allowed to rail its output, some latch up or take an indeterminate amount of time to recover. They also transfer power supply noise, even to other amps in the same package (PSRR is reduced).
Op-amps can have better input-offset stability.
Comparators can be faster recovering from railed condition (which is their normal use)
After learning this, I modified my circuit so op-amp was kept out of saturation rather than railing (only one polarity needed to be clean, because the other disabled operation.)
Capacitors to delay response. This was an overload detector that shut off an RF amp if it failed to reach intended amplitude in circuit (e.g. due to mismatch.)
I also learned that there are "comparator" ICs which while similar to op-amp, behave a bit differently.
If an op-amp is allowed to rail its output, some latch up or take an indeterminate amount of time to recover. They also transfer power supply noise, even to other amps in the same package (PSRR is reduced).
Op-amps can have better input-offset stability.
Comparators can be faster recovering from railed condition (which is their normal use)
After learning this, I modified my circuit so op-amp was kept out of saturation rather than railing (only one polarity needed to be clean, because the other disabled operation.)
Appreciate the recommendation and the link. I know the problem is easily solvable (probably in about a million different ways).
For now, I’m just going to focus on how necessary it’s going to be (ie: truly well-matched LiFePO4 cells should rarely need rebalancing), and only once I get to the point that my manual maintainance has gotten to the point that it’s more trouble than yet another DIY project will I start planning an actual ‘automatic’ solution.
I’ve already got to adjust various timing and voltage parameters to make my time-shift system keep up with the changing seasons and PG&E’s seasonal peak hour changes on a ~3 month basis, so if I can easily keep my cells bottom-balanced by manually attaching my active balancer for one overnight session on that same schedule, that’s easier than hooking in yet another thing to keep an eye on (YATTKAEO
).
Hedges
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Maybe you should implement a partial BMS function, able to detect any cell low voltage and cell voltage divergence so you can shut off inverting before BMS pulls the plug. If BMS gave a warning before disconnect, that would take care of it.
Would expect cells to diverge eventually, and faster as they get older. Does your active balancer at bottom keep working after BMS disconnect?
I wish my AGM had all cells electrically accessible. They're sealed 6V or 12V batteries; only the higher Ah 2V cells offer that.
I've though of pressing a DAS (relay matrix) into service for balancing, scanning to read voltages and connecting a power supply.
Expensive equipment for the application, but general purpose off-the-shelf equipment so can be moved from lab to this use and back.
Would expect cells to diverge eventually, and faster as they get older. Does your active balancer at bottom keep working after BMS disconnect?
I wish my AGM had all cells electrically accessible. They're sealed 6V or 12V batteries; only the higher Ah 2V cells offer that.
I've though of pressing a DAS (relay matrix) into service for balancing, scanning to read voltages and connecting a power supply.
Expensive equipment for the application, but general purpose off-the-shelf equipment so can be moved from lab to this use and back.
I’ve got battery voltage detection in my SCC that can control a relay and shut down my inverters whenever I want, so shutdown function is pretty well covered without coming close the BMSes LVD (I’m currently shutting down Load at 25.25V and all 8 cells are within 10mV of 3.156V - that’s they mismatch / ‘stray’ I’m currently characterizing).
The Active Balancer is independent of the BMS (has it’s own independent direct harness to all 8 cells) and functions as long as a cell is no lower than 2.9V (still seeking clarity from the manufacturer about exactly what happens once a cell is below 2.9V, but appears that the balancer just ignores that one cell and continues balancing the remainder).
I only want the balancer connected when no charge or load currents are flowing and only when the battery has triggered the LVD of my SCC @ 25.25V.
Again, I could use my SCCs Load Relay to turn on the Active Balancer only at night (timer) and only once LVD of 25.25V has been reached (ie: perfect solution) but I’m currently using that relay to turn off the inverters.
I’m toying with the idea of finding an 8-channel or 16-channel programmable voltage monitor to rig up as a safety feature (early warnng if any cell starts behaving strangely) and controlling the Active Balancer should be trivial from a platform like that.
I’m just so relieved to have finally gotten my system built, and pretty much functioning as intended, that I’m gonna’ take a breather before diving into my next project
.
Hedges
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One idea I have is resistor dividers to attenuate differential taps from each cell down to the range zero ... 5V. Feed that into a mux front-end of ADC to be read. For 8 channel, need either 8 differential or 16 single-ended inputs. Might get than in a single microcontroller with mixed-signal functions. Everything I was doing was I2C or SPI.
Same scheme could feed comparators. If I build a BMS I might do analog monitoring/shutdown and digitally scanned & controlled balancing.
Another way to go is electronics per cell, with digital isolators.
I have 2 packs with active balancers. I have a simple voltage circuit controlling a relay on the RUN jumper. When pack voltage hits 27V the balancers turn on. Turn off is around 26.8V. Only been using a week but seems to be working well.
I need the opposite (I’m using a bottom-balanced battery) but would appreciate seeing your circuit diagram is you’ve got something you can share…
I was originally wanting an lvd circuit and found this, http://www.reuk.co.uk/Simple-Low-Voltage-Disconnect-with-NE555.htm. Had trouble getting it working and then decided an lvd was not required. With the active balancer I wanted a similar circuit so looked at it again. A soldered dead short was suddenly obvious! The DROK meters also have relay control but need to be manually reset so it's the simple circuit that is in use. I am using an rp3 to collect BMS data and afterwards it dawned on me that this would be another way to control relays based on the data.
Nice!
If I get around to deciding I need to rig my own LVD trigger up, this approach will be near the top of my list…
Apologies for digging this up, in page 6 post #108 the first picture shows how the OP prep'ed the wire for crimping. It looks like the wire end was pre-tinned with solder. Decades ago I was told never to do this as solder is soft and in time the electrical connection will be compromised. Maybe this is one of the contributing cause of the fire.
Frank in Thailand
making mistakes so you don't have to...
Lol.
Almost a year ago.... Time flies.
Or has it been a year already.
I don't know about pre-tinned being a bad thing.
I doubt it, as all electronic is soldered together, that's the way it works.
This were BMS wires, for measuring the voltages, and balance.
With the crazy high amperage of 1.5A max, at 3.65v.
Perhaps 3.75, so 5.625 watt.
That was all the electricity flowing through the wire cores.
I understand why people really like the fault to be the wires and not the valuable cells.
When one tries to push 152Ah in a housing/ casing that is used for 100 and 120Ah, you are pushing the limits.(too far) (like dumping 305Ah in 280Ah casing)
As the cells, at the early start, were not yet clamped together, they expanded/ delaminated.
That would not have been a bad thing, except some capacity loss and less lifetime.
Probelms start when you do compress them afterwards.
Not a lot of force, but enough for a snug fit.
A week later you noticed that the snug fit isn't snug anymore, and clamp a bit more.
In other words "delamination"... (??)
That doesn't workout.
Bloated cells can not be delaminated.
A bit bloating doesn't hurt much.
I'm not talking about the real almost look like they exploded inside, real puffy pillows....
I did not know.
As I wasn't applying much force, I thought it could not hurt.
Reality:
It can.
And when a cell clamped together between other cells starts to selfdischarge due a short inside...
It will get hot.
Damn hot...
Hot enough to effect the other cells, chain reaction.
When hot enough, silicone protection of the BMS wires will melt, shorts occur.
And I had 2 layers.
Best strong material that doesn't guide electricity?
Indeed... Wood
What is Excellent food during this selfdischarge to make a lot of smoke and some flames.
Anyway...
I don't have to explain how a fire can start and rapidly spreads.
I'm even positive that if you look around at your home you will find probably 10 dangerous spots
Phone charger close to curtains
Plastic close to the stove, list goes on and on and on.
So me will say it's stupid to have wires over the cells.
Or to have used wood
Both aren't a problem without a "fire starter".
We all know about TV making fire at standby, yet... How many do take out the plug???
Just as stupid, to thrust on your electronic to not malfunction.
Not totally stupid as I cladded the walls and ceiling with concrete fiber sheets, had smoke detector and emergency shutdown setup to stop all power from and to the batteries and inverters.
The fire was within 10 minutes under control, and took 30 minutes more to dump sand to suficate it.
My new setup has again tinned copper wire, rated for max 10A, self fusing above this (I guess at 11A)
Same wire I used before.
About 350 days without any problems.
I am curious about this statement.
Why should pre-tinned copper wire be a bad thing????
Almost a year ago.... Time flies.
Or has it been a year already.
I don't know about pre-tinned being a bad thing.
I doubt it, as all electronic is soldered together, that's the way it works.
This were BMS wires, for measuring the voltages, and balance.
With the crazy high amperage of 1.5A max, at 3.65v.
Perhaps 3.75, so 5.625 watt.
That was all the electricity flowing through the wire cores.
I understand why people really like the fault to be the wires and not the valuable cells.
When one tries to push 152Ah in a housing/ casing that is used for 100 and 120Ah, you are pushing the limits.(too far) (like dumping 305Ah in 280Ah casing)
As the cells, at the early start, were not yet clamped together, they expanded/ delaminated.
That would not have been a bad thing, except some capacity loss and less lifetime.
Probelms start when you do compress them afterwards.
Not a lot of force, but enough for a snug fit.
A week later you noticed that the snug fit isn't snug anymore, and clamp a bit more.
In other words "delamination"... (??)
That doesn't workout.
Bloated cells can not be delaminated.
A bit bloating doesn't hurt much.
I'm not talking about the real almost look like they exploded inside, real puffy pillows....
I did not know.
As I wasn't applying much force, I thought it could not hurt.
Reality:
It can.
And when a cell clamped together between other cells starts to selfdischarge due a short inside...
It will get hot.
Damn hot...
Hot enough to effect the other cells, chain reaction.
When hot enough, silicone protection of the BMS wires will melt, shorts occur.
And I had 2 layers.
Best strong material that doesn't guide electricity?
Indeed... Wood
What is Excellent food during this selfdischarge to make a lot of smoke and some flames.
Anyway...
I don't have to explain how a fire can start and rapidly spreads.
I'm even positive that if you look around at your home you will find probably 10 dangerous spots
Phone charger close to curtains
Plastic close to the stove, list goes on and on and on.
So me will say it's stupid to have wires over the cells.
Or to have used wood
Both aren't a problem without a "fire starter".
We all know about TV making fire at standby, yet... How many do take out the plug???
Just as stupid, to thrust on your electronic to not malfunction.
Not totally stupid as I cladded the walls and ceiling with concrete fiber sheets, had smoke detector and emergency shutdown setup to stop all power from and to the batteries and inverters.
The fire was within 10 minutes under control, and took 30 minutes more to dump sand to suficate it.
My new setup has again tinned copper wire, rated for max 10A, self fusing above this (I guess at 11A)
Same wire I used before.
About 350 days without any problems.
I am curious about this statement.
Why should pre-tinned copper wire be a bad thing????
