Lawsuit challenging Alabama Power solar panel charge

[BarracudaBob]

Lawsuit challenging Alabama Power’s rooftop solar panel charge continues (Read)​

The charge was initially $5 for every kilowatt of solar power generated at the location, but that has since been increased to $5.41, which, for a site with a 5kW solar array, would cost an additional $25 per month, or $300 annually, roughly $9,000 during the 30-year expected lifespan of the system.

And watch:

 

[timselectric]

A fee is understandable, if you are exporting to the grid.
But if not, then it's none of their business what you have.

 

[Hedges]

We buy a PV panel for $0.19/W, then pay the utility company $1.80/W over its lifetime.

 

[AntronX]

Utility argues that if you going to rely on the grid as your backup then you should pay for upkeep. Ok sounds fair but in this case I should have a right to disconnect. At this $5.41/kw(pv) rate that's $0.044/kWh at 4kWh/kW/day solar resource rate assuming perfect solar utilization. 4.4 cents seems reasonable for what it takes to keep the grid operational. But the question is a philosophical one. Should power grid be a social responsibility?

 

[Danke]

Why would your connection fee increase depending on the size of your system unless the transformer servicing your home had to be upgraded? And wouldn’t that just be a one time fee?

 

[Rednecktek]

Utility argues that if you going to rely on the grid as your backup then you should pay for upkeep

You mean like the monthly service connection fee? The one you have to pay regardless of how many watts you use?

 

[Hedges]

Fee should be per meter, and maybe demand charge for peak current.
Not for power you produce and use yourself if you never ask grid to be a substitute source for its full amount.
Just a fee for the power you draw and the pattern of drawing power.

 

[AntronX]

You mean like the monthly service connection fee? The one you have to pay regardless of how many watts you use?

That fee does not cover the cost of operating the grid. With my utility it costs around 8 cents/kWh with final out of pocket cost to me at $0.15/kWh. Fuel is 2.7 cents/kWh and the rest is taxes around 2 c/kWh.

 

[AntronX]

Fee should be per meter, and maybe demand charge for peak current.

The problem is they still have to maintain the infrastructure to satisfy your service amps. Worst case example of this is when everyone has solar and near zeroes out their average energy use but they all turn on their 11kW central heaters during January cold snap. Or pay for hurricane repairs and hardening.

 

[Hedges]

Not the amperage rating of my service, the peak amps I draw.
"Demand charge" covers that.

I could put in 100kW of PV for pool pumping and heating, yet never draw more power from the grid than what the house consumes.
No reason for the utility to tax the PV panels I install.

I used to have 100A service. I upgraded to 200A without adding loads at this time. No change to my bill.

 

[AntronX]

We don't have residential demand charge. Here is my bill 1425 kWh in September.

 

[dougbert]

what the PoCo wants is the user to pay the utility money for power the user generates because the utility is LOSING money due to not selling the power to the user who is generating their own power

Kick rocks PoCo

I pay the monthly connection fee now, at $20 base rate. When I use power, I pay for it. If I generate power by another source/means what is that to you PoCo?

 

[altenergy21]

The argument is that because we use power after sundown and because the power companies couldn't make money from us when sunup, then they would charge everyone a higher price to make up. It seems they should explain why their rates suddenly doubled and it's not the fault of guys with some solar panels. Also their frequent outage wasn't caused by guys with solar panels either.

Since when is not making money from people become an entitlement to their resources? I don't make money when people don't buy my stuff, then I'm entitled to demanding that they pay more?

Somehow they don't seem to understand that if I send out more power than I get back, someone benefits and it's the power company if they also charge non-solar customers more.

I simply want to use this super electrical highway that I paid for (the base charge just for having a meter, $16/month here) to send power to my friends.

Walmart can use the roads that we pay for and power companies can use that "road", but we can't.

The people arguing for power companies are just ordinary people/conservatives who want to protect non-solar customers. But this is also just protecting the power companies. They like fossil fuel power generation because they hate "green" power.

I thought energy equals the ability to do work, equals economic growth so they don't want us to contribute to the economy. How stupid.

They point to California and NEM3 and the lost of solar jobs as justification. But we all know California is a socialist state and we live in a socialist country. Everyone is subsidized in some way. The poor people without solar panels get special electric rates, and remember cash for clunkers, Obama phones, PPP for Covid, etc?

Why is it when guys with solar panels get involved, subsidy is suddenly bad? Some of us bought our equipment with our own money and install them ourselves, no handouts from the government.

 

[AntronX]

Since when is not making money from people become an entitlement to their resources?

Since they were granted legalized monopoly powers by public utility commissions. They get to be the only game in town in return for serving everyone at regulated affordable rates. In return PoCo gets guaranteed customer base and guaranteed rate of return. This was a win-win arrangement until cheap solar showed up.

I simply want to use this super electrical highway that I paid for (the base charge just for having a meter, $16/month here) to send power to my friends.

Nope, you did not pay for it with only $16 meter charge. Maybe that charge covers the cost of having your meter installed and read every month. The cost to build an run the grid is baked into your kWh usage. Hence the dilemma with net zero grid-tied solar customers. Previously they used the grid for free. With NEM3 that issue was fixed. Next fight will be about battery autonomous customers who want to keep the grid as backup or even cut the cord entirely. Current business model is not designed to accommodate them on large scale while keeping the grid financially solvent. Pakistan may be first country where existing national grid will collapse as too many people are switching to offgrid solar.

Walmart can use the roads that we pay for and power companies can use that "road", but we can't.

Trucks pay for roads via road and fuel taxes. You get a benefit from those roads in the form of various Walmarts located close to you.

 

[Rednecktek]

That fee does not cover the cost of operating the grid.

So my $35/mo and 0kwh usage at my camp pays for... what?

Meter is read remotely so no paying a meter reader. Breakers are all secured. No grid tied panels or windmills or water wheels putting power back into the grid. When I'm up there I pay for every kwh I use on top of the $35 and the taxes (separate line items) and when I'm gone I still pay the $35 +tax.

So, what does that $35/mo pay for if not grid operation and maintenance?

 

[BarracudaBob]

I agree that there should be a fee to maintain the grid infrastructure, storm repair fund, and administration cost. Ideally the utility can base this information of past use by the individual as well as people in that area.

The part that I question is if I want to over panel and have excessive storage to reduce my dependency on the grid why should I have to pay the grid more. The fees mentioned above shouldn't be base on how many KW of panels or KWH of battery I have. My possessions shouldn't be factored into the calculation. That is a wealth tax at that point.

Now if the end user has massive surge current to charge a massive tone of batteries that should be charged a premium for unexpected high demand for their use of the grid.

 

[DIYrich]

So, what does that $35/mo pay for if not grid operation and maintenance?

Need to add cost of standby generation. The cost of having the expensive plant sit there in case you need power.

If they let people go off grid, then it reduces standby power requirements, and now you have stranded grid costs. Maybe a one-time fee to disconnect.

 

[Plum Crazy Rob]

So, what does that $35/mo pay for if not grid operation and maintenance?

Maybe situation is somewhat different for our elec coops vs public utilities, but sure sounds like GRID to me (Note not MY coop as it could not possibly be bothered to explain to owner-peasants what the fee covers)

Coop base charge explanation

 

[BarracudaBob]

Maybe situation is somewhat different for our elec coops vs public utilities, but sure sounds like GRID to me (Note not MY coop as it could not possibly be bothered to explain to owner-peasants what the fee covers)

Coop base charge explanation

A base charge seems fair and calculated on maintain the infrastructure. Not charging you on how much you personally own.

 

[OffGridForGood]

I like having my own battery for storage.
I pay the monthly service fee to have the utility as my back-up, and never export a single Watt.
Expansion of my PV is in the works...if I have to pay a fee "per kW of PV capacity" (a tax on sunshine) - I will submit a disconnect order, and lock my gate.

 

[BarracudaBob]

I like having my own battery for storage.
I pay the monthly service fee to have the utility as my back-up, and never export a single Watt.
Expansion of my PV is in the works...if I have to pay a fee "per kW of PV capacity" (a tax on sunshine) - I will submit a disconnect order, and lock my gate.

Future:
Disconnect is not an option, you have been assimilated. Minimum mandatory fee and working on a wealth tax where inspector inventories your personal property and then a private organization taxes you on it.

 

[seneysolar]

This sounds like one of those great ideas to collect money after they told everyone to "conserve energy"
Michigan is complaining that they aren't getting enough money anymore for road taxes because of electric vehicles not buying gas (where the tax is) so they want to charge everyone based off their odometer.... "oh you racked up 10000 miles, surely it was all in Michigan so you need to pay for that"

"Oh you have a 10kw solar array, surely its generating at stc rating 365 days a year, you need to pay for that"

 

[BarracudaBob]

This sounds like one of those great ideas to collect money after they told everyone to "conserve energy"
Michigan is complaining that they aren't getting enough money anymore for road taxes because of electric vehicles not buying gas (where the tax is) so they want to charge everyone based off their odometer.... "oh you racked up 10000 miles, surely it was all in Michigan so you need to pay for that"

"Oh you have a 10kw solar array, surely its generating at stc rating 365 days a year, you need to pay for that"

All the EV's aren't paying for road tax. I get that. All about keeping and improving infrastructure. Scary part is every vehicle has cellular connectivity Internet Of Things and reports all that info to the manufacture who then sells that info.

I don't disagree with a use tax but not a possession tax.

 

[TM48]

Much of the above is why I choose to not to sell back to the PoCo. As it is I pay one of the highest per month meter charges in the country. $48.05 for a 31 day billing cycle or $1.55 per day. This past month I paid 17.47 cents a kilowatt with the demand rate I used. And this is in a state that doesn't tax residential power. If you divide you total bill by KW used it shows the actual cost per KW for all reasons. In 1/2022 I paid 14.9 cent per KW. Inflation hits everyone including power companies.

Discussing the situation by including a mixture of billing practices from around the country isn't fruitful. It's more useful to hear your company's billing practices as AntronX did.

 

[BarracudaBob]

Discussing the situation by including a mixture of billing practices from around the country isn't fruitful. It's more useful to hear your company's billing practices as AntronX did.

I am the same as AntronX, Bill is about the same amount. Non Solar is usually $450 and with island mode no grid connection for select loads I was $127 last month.