Lead acid vs tubular which is cheaper on the long term?

[Tariq0101]

Is it cheaper to buy a lead acid battery every year or 1 tubular every two years.
I know it's a dumb question and a google search away, but I did my research, I just want a professional opinion because I might have missed something or didn't consider something.

 

[snoobler]

Isn't tubular also lead-acid?

 

[Tariq0101]

Isn't tubular also lead-acid?

Yes, it's a variation.
What I mean with lead- acid is the classic one

 

[snoobler]

Three main types:
FLA - flooded
AGM - absorptive glass mat
GEL - electrolyte is a thick gel

SLA is sealed lead-acid. AGM and GEL are SLA by definition, but SLA may also be a type of flooded.

Flooded (FLA) vs. tubular (a type of AGM)?

Properly maintained deep cycle FLA typically last twice as long as an AGM in the same cycling application.

If not properly maintained, they get killed quickly.

Cylindrical cells tend to perform better in higher current applications where they have thinner plates and lower resistance. They don't always make good deep-cycle batteries.

I avoid AGM unless I want to be lazy. I avoid cylindrical because I associate them with Optima, and I hate Optima with a passion. If I want a cheap, long-lived lead-acid battery system, I buy suitable deep-cycle FLA and maintain them.

 

[Tariq0101]

Three main types:
FLA - flooded
AGM - absorptive glass mat
GEL - electrolyte is a thick gel

SLA is sealed lead-acid. AGM and GEL are SLA by definition, but SLA may also be a type of flooded.

Flooded (FLA) vs. tubular (a type of AGM)?

Properly maintained deep cycle FLA typically last twice as long as an AGM in the same cycling application.

If not properly maintained, they get killed quickly.

Cylindrical cells tend to perform better in higher current applications where they have thinner plates and lower resistance. They don't always make good deep-cycle batteries.

I avoid AGM unless I want to be lazy. I avoid cylindrical because I associate them with Optima, and I hate Optima with a passion. If I want a cheap, long-lived lead-acid battery system, I buy suitable deep-cycle FLA and maintain them.

With maintenance you mean not letting it go under 11 volts?

 

[Hedges]

With maintenance you mean not letting it go under 11 volts?

Abuse is a separate issue. Under- or Over-charging, over-temperature. Excessive charge rate.

Maintenance meaning FLA loses water over time, so you have to check water level and add.
Also, check specific gravity with a hygrometer and perform an equalizing charge when needed.

For a large enough bank, FLA could save you money over its lifetime.
For a small enough bank, AGM could save you time (at the expense of some money.)

Why do you think you'll have to replace a lead-acid battery every year?
Number of cycles typically ranges from 300 to 8000, depending on type, brand, depth of discharge.
If someone designs a lead-acid bank for off-grid, able to get by 3 days without sunshine, most of the time it won't cycle deeply. It could last 10 to 20 years.
Some FLA batteries may be good for 10 or more years of nightly deep cycling.

If you expect to cycle near 100% every day or multiple times per day, then LiFePO4 may serve you better.

 

[Tariq0101]

Abuse is a separate issue. Under- or Over-charging, over-temperature. Excessive charge rate.

Maintenance meaning FLA loses water over time, so you have to check water level and add.
Also, check specific gravity with a hygrometer and perform an equalizing charge when needed.

For a large enough bank, FLA could save you money over its lifetime.
For a small enough bank, AGM could save you time (at the expense of some money.)

Why do you think you'll have to replace a lead-acid battery every year?
Number of cycles typically ranges from 300 to 8000, depending on type, brand, depth of discharge.
If someone designs a lead-acid bank for off-grid, able to get by 3 days without sunshine, most of the time it won't cycle deeply. It could last 10 to 20 years.
Some FLA batteries may be good for 10 or more years of nightly deep cycling.

If you expect to cycle near 100% every day or multiple times per day, then LiFePO4 may serve you better.

Lithium is very expensive where I live and the batteries will discharge a lot in the evening everyday, last power bank of two 280ah lasted a year and a hald

 

[snoobler]

If you abuse batteries, they won't last long. If you were taking them down to 11V, you were lucky they lasted that long.

You have to tailor your bank size to your usage. For lead-acid, you need 2X your usage to insure you don't discharge them below 50%. It's also important that they be charged to full daily.

Discharge to empty - lucky to last a year.
Discharge to 50% - likely 4+ years.

 

[Hedges]

Lithium is very expensive where I live and the batteries will discharge a lot in the evening everyday, last power bank of two 280ah lasted a year and a hald

What temperature range will your batteries see?

When I selected AGM one year ago, I looked at commercial lithium batteries. Cost per kWh of life cycle were the same, but lithium cost several times as much for several times the life. My application is grid-backup, so I expect much less than 300 cycles in a decade.

The DIY batteries people here build out of 280 Ah cells ordered from China are costing less than my AGM, and are expected (hoped?) to last a decade of 80% cycles every day. Biggest restriction is no recharging below 0 degrees C.

Properly maintained wet-cell FLA, either forklift or Rolls batteries, might do well for you. I see up to 8000 cycles claimed. Look up their cycle life vs. DoD. Best life will be achieved with regulated charge current, perhaps 0.13C depending on brand.

 

[Tariq0101]

What temperature range will your batteries see?

When I selected AGM one year ago, I looked at commercial lithium batteries. Cost per kWh of life cycle were the same, but lithium cost several times as much for several times the life. My application is grid-backup, so I expect much less than 300 cycles in a decade.

The DIY batteries people here build out of 280 Ah cells ordered from China are costing less than my AGM, and are expected (hoped?) to last a decade of 80% cycles every day. Biggest restriction is no recharging below 0 degrees C.

Properly maintained wet-cell FLA, either forklift or Rolls batteries, might do well for you. I see up to 8000 cycles claimed. Look up their cycle life vs. DoD. Best life will be achieved with regulated charge current, perhaps 0.13C depending on brand.

It only got sub zero once this winter but it has been 3-4° in the night for a while now, I shouldn't charge the batteries at these temperatures? Why?

 

[Hedges]

It only got sub zero once this winter but it has been 3-4° in the night for a while now, I shouldn't charge the batteries at these temperatures? Why?

Charging lead-acid in freezing weather is fine.
Lead-acid will show significantly reduced capacity (voltage?) in the cold.
Oh by the way - charge controller needs a temperature sensor on the battery. Otherwise it will under-charge in cold weather, shortening battery life.

It is lithium batteries that can't take charging in freezing weather. Vendor charts posted elsewhere in the forum show max charge rate as low as 0.05C (depending on state of charge) at 0 degrees C. Charging in the cold apparently plates out lithium, causes permanent loss of capacity, can kill the battery.

You may be able to get good life from lead-acid batteries, if sized to support the Wh discharge requirements and (if necessary) with a shutdown to prevent over-discharging.

You may also be able to use lithium batteries just fine, if that 3-4 degrees is C not F, and charge rate is low enough (or charging is stopped when cold.)