diy solar

diy solar

Leaking Electrolyte from Bigbattery Powerblock

I noticed the video was made "unlisted". What was the outcome? They went through 100,000 cells in their warehouse, found 11 bad cells, and the assumption is just that you happened to be so unlucky (0.01% chance) that you got a bad cell in yours?
 
Given all the issues Big Battery has had it has to make folks wonder what the heck is going on. They have serious issues with Quality Control starting with the base components up to the completed product being pushed out the door at hyper-speed.

Will, IF have any genuine influence with these people... Remind them that adages such as Haste Makes Waste exist for GOOD REASON !
How much will THIS debacle cost them ? How much will they have to tack on to prices to recover what they lose every time they mess up because they are ruching & not paying attention. They always seem to get 97% of the way there but can't seem to get to 100% no matter what.
 
The danger with the electrolyte is with HF generation and subsequent extended exposure, and your bodies calcium store can be depleted, causing muscle paralysis and seizures. This requires pretty significant exposure, and should show up within 24 hours. Typically you would have respiratory issues and or skin burns from that much exposure, but not always.

Eye damage is also a risk with splashing.
 
Last edited:
This is from Lishen spec sheet, check out 6.13,,
Product Specification CONFIDENTIAL Rev: 1 Page: 14 of 15 Lishen (Qingdao) New Energy Co., Ltd Date: 20190615 Lishen (Qingdao) New Energy Co., Ltd explosion. 6.4 Don’t reverse the positive (+) and negative (-) terminals. 6.5 Don’t put cells in water or other conductive liquids or let cells absorb amoisture. 6.6 Don’t impact cells excessively. 6.7 Don’t solder the battery directly. Excessive heating may cause deformation of the battery components such as the gasket, which may lead to the battery swelling,leakage, explosion,or ignition. 6.8 Don’t use abnormal cell which has damages by shipping stress, drop, short or something else, and which gives off electrolyte odor. 6.9 Don’t contact cans directly or with other conductive materails during the using process. 6.10 Keep away form static circumstances during storage and using. 6.11 Don’t use cells together with other one-shot batteries and secondary batteries. Don’t use cells together with different packages, types and brands. 6.12 Stop using and process the cells accordingly when the following circumstances happened: getting hot sharply, smelling, changing colors, deformation or others. 6.13 If there is leaked electrolyte from batteries, please scrub it away with fresh water to avoid any skin discomfort.
 
I just read this topic, and wanted to throw something out there about HF. I worked in the semiconductor industry for 40 years, and have extensive experience with both Hydroflouric Acid, and Hydrogen Flouride gas. It is used to eat away glass or Silicon. I have been burned by it, and I have seen the horrors done to the unfortunate who have been burned worse than myself.

HF is known as the "Bone Seeker". Abut 30 years ago when I got burned, I had acid gloves on, but there was a pinhole leak. I was replacing filters on an acid sink, and the acid leaked into the thumb of my glove. I did not notice it for a couple hours, until my thumb started feeling sore.

I took my gloves off and found my thumb wet, and wiped it dry with a towel, then did the taste test, (the illegal but often used tongue tip and spit, technician method) and sure enough I tasted acid. It tastes like vinegar.

I was unfortunately seen and snitched off, and the Intel fab police caught me and threw me into a cold acid shower for 15 minutes, and stole all my clothes , my wallet, everything, and bagged as hazardous waste. They sent me to their onsite clinic, where they made me rinse my hand for 15 more minutes, then wrapped my hand with Magnesium Oxide paste and bandaged.

At this time, my thumb felt like someone had whacked it with a hammer. They told me the HF had went right through my skin as though my skin was no more than a sponge, and was etching the bones in my hand. Intel takes HF burns VERY SERIOUSLY!

The next morning my thumb was throbbing, and I went into the clinic to get repacked, and when they took the bandage off, my thumb was purple. In a couple days, the thumbnail fell off. A week later, X-rays showed my thumb bones etched thinner than normal, and I was considered recovered. I was lucky it was a minor burn. The skin was just fine, but bone and fingernail were eaten up.

HF smells similar to Chlorine, and Bromine, and if you smell it, exhale it all, run away, and inhale from somewhere else. I am sure the Semiconductor industry grade is more concentrated than people will encounter in the outside world, but I would not take a chance.

In 1978 I got a job as technician at Siliconix, and they guy who cleaned the glassware there had one normal arm, and 1 super skinny deformed arm, he had HF pour down inside his acid smock sleeve, and though it was just water for several minutes until he realized something was wrong. They had to separate his muscles from his bones to pack magnesium paste around them to save his arm.

HF is serious. I did not know it was in these batteries. Use a plastic tub, plastic is safe, but glass is not. Glass Etching cream for hobbyist has HF in it. Also, Fluoride in drinking water and toothpaste is supposed to be safe?
 
I really hope Will does a Lessons Learned & Good Practices Video and maybe even a Page on his Main Website.
Although, somehow I don;t think it'll happen... it just isn't "Fun Stuff".
 
HF is serious. I did not know it was in these batteries. Use a plastic tub, plastic is safe, but glass is not. Glass Etching cream for hobbyist has HF in it. Also, Fluoride in drinking water and toothpaste is supposed to be safe?

The dose makes the poison. Concentrated HF solution is very dangerous. The stuff used in semiconductor etching is 40% or greater concentration. Low concentration (such as drinking water) has none of these effects. For example drinking water is like 1PPM Fluoride ions (not HF). Naturally occurring surface water is about 0.3ppm.

The stuff we are talking about here seems to be less than 1% Fluorine by weight.
 
Last edited:
This is from Lishen spec sheet, check out 6.13,,
Product Specification CONFIDENTIAL Rev: 1 Page: 14 of 15 Lishen (Qingdao) New Energy Co., Ltd Date: 20190615 Lishen (Qingdao) New Energy Co., Ltd explosion. 6.4 Don’t reverse the positive (+) and negative (-) terminals. 6.5 Don’t put cells in water or other conductive liquids or let cells absorb amoisture. 6.6 Don’t impact cells excessively. 6.7 Don’t solder the battery directly. Excessive heating may cause deformation of the battery components such as the gasket, which may lead to the battery swelling,leakage, explosion,or ignition. 6.8 Don’t use abnormal cell which has damages by shipping stress, drop, short or something else, and which gives off electrolyte odor. 6.9 Don’t contact cans directly or with other conductive materails during the using process. 6.10 Keep away form static circumstances during storage and using. 6.11 Don’t use cells together with other one-shot batteries and secondary batteries. Don’t use cells together with different packages, types and brands. 6.12 Stop using and process the cells accordingly when the following circumstances happened: getting hot sharply, smelling, changing colors, deformation or others. 6.13 If there is leaked electrolyte from batteries, please scrub it away with fresh water to avoid any skin discomfort.


Hmmm...

6.7 Don’t solder the battery directly. Excessive heating may cause deformation of the battery components such as the gasket, which may lead to the battery swelling,leakage, explosion,or ignition.

I wonder if this ^^^ might be the root cause. BigBattery laser welds their terminals onto the cells as shown in the video below.


I'm not familiar with the temps of that machine but it seems possible that operator error could lead to over heating a cell and per the specs from Lishen lead to "swelling, leakage or explosion". Yikes!

I also noticed that these cells do not have the blue wrap on them from Lishen. BigBattery wraps them as part of their manufacturing process. It seems unlikely that they wouldn't catch leaking electrolyte before welding the terminals and wrapping the cells and then installing them into the battery.

I guess this means I should reconsider where I install these types of cells in the rig. All of the storage bays are below where people sleep in most RVs and I wouldn't love having a cell leaking toxic fumes while you were sleeping. Not to mention the hazmat cleanup afterwards.
 
Drinking water, HF is added but then it is neutralized.
I don't think we want even ppm level exposures to HF.

"Lowest Lethal Dose, Human LCLo: 50 ppm/30 min."

https://ehs.unc.edu/chemical/hfa/chemical-safety-information-hydrofluoric-acid/

Some antibiotics (Fluoroquinolones) contain fluorine. This can cause eye damage with UV exposure, although doctors in the field seem oblivious. There are veterinary studies on cats which document this. My guess is UV enters the eyes and breaks apart the molecule, so fluorine combines with water to form HF or some other harmful chemical.
 
I wonder if this ^^^ might be the root cause. BigBattery laser welds their terminals onto the cells as shown in the video below.

Welding is faster than soldering, less energy deposited. Similarly, fuse strips are spot welded on many batteries.
 
Just got an update. They found 11 bad cells out of 100,000. Seems like a lot of people had to sort cells this morning.
View attachment 37428
Hmmmm....11 cells out of 100,000? I wonder how many people they had or hired to check all of them. I don't understand how it would be possible to check that many cells in the short period of time. The whole thing with leaky cells on their end is bugging me. Is it possible the manufacturer of the cells is sending them out leaking? And exactly where are they leaking from?
 
Yeah HF is awful stuff, but considering how much was created considering the environment and spill, I am not concerned anymore. Keep in mind that you need it to be created first, by contact with water. And the amount present is pretty small. I understand how bad it is, but the dose is very important. Of the 4% present in the electrolyte, a small amount reacted with atmospheric moisture, which as stated earlier in this thread, is a slow process.

And it is a heavy gas, and this happened outside. Not inside. The trailer was wide open when it happened.

So it is good to be cautious, but after further reading, I am not worried at all. Did you guys read Luthj posts? Or the safety sheets?
 
Hmmm...



I wonder if this ^^^ might be the root cause. BigBattery laser welds their terminals onto the cells as shown in the video below.


I'm not familiar with the temps of that machine but it seems possible that operator error could lead to over heating a cell and per the specs from Lishen lead to "swelling, leakage or explosion". Yikes!

I also noticed that these cells do not have the blue wrap on them from Lishen. BigBattery wraps them as part of their manufacturing process. It seems unlikely that they wouldn't catch leaking electrolyte before welding the terminals and wrapping the cells and then installing them into the battery.

I guess this means I should reconsider where I install these types of cells in the rig. All of the storage bays are below where people sleep in most RVs and I wouldn't love having a cell leaking toxic fumes while you were sleeping. Not to mention the hazmat cleanup afterwards.
Laser welding and ultrasonic welding of terminals is fine and pretty common. Soldering should absolutely be avoided, but I don't think there is a single manufacturer doing that. So no need to worry about that.
 
The dose makes the poison. Concentrated HF solution is very dangerous. The stuff used in semiconductor etching is 40% or greater concentration. Low concentration (such as drinking water) has none of these effects. For example drinking water is like 1PPM Fluoride ions (not HF). Naturally occurring surface water is about 0.3ppm.

The stuff we are talking about here seems to be less than 1% Fluorine by weight.
Thank you for reiterating this point. Exactly.
 
Let's not ignore the fact that this electrolyte is flammable! I did a puncture test a few weeks ago - It only smoked when we did the first puncture, which is what most of the testing reports for cells state is allowable, but after the second puncture, I think it made a spark that had then ignited the now vaporized electrolyte. I think it's safe to say the electrolyte should stay where it belongs - inside of the cell.

 
... that had then ignited the now vaporized electrolyte.

Pretty hard to ignite a liquid or solid. But easy as a gas or powder (consider oil, or flour)

Your comment about a spark sounds correct.
If someone abuses a cell so it vents, now they have a situation like bilge where all electronic components need to be designed for use in explosive atmosphere.

Seems to me that LiFePO4 batteries ought to be use in a way where any gas/spray can vent outside, not be exposed to the electronic stuff. Just as one would with lead-acid.
 
Our cellphones have li-poly pounch cells that can combust into a fireball and create extremely high temperatures. The big reason we trust that they don't is that they are well designed.

I will keep LiFePO4 packs under my bed *IF* they are well designed packs with high quality components. That is the big difference in my opinion.

Same is true with nearly every electrical device in existence.
 
The aluminum prismatic cases are typically welded (laser I think) at the factory to seal them. The only non metal part of the case is the rubber O ring gasket between the terminals and the top cap.

Failure modes are as follows.

  • Overheat the cell until the pressure relief vents
  • Overpressure the cell by electrolyte breakdown (overvoltage)
  • Mechanically damange the cell by puncture or other method.
  • Corrosion eating through the case (acid or similar exposure).
  • Overheat a terminal until the rubber O ring vaporizes.


Note that gasket/O-ring failure won't cause a leak if the cell is upright.
 
Back
Top