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Li-ion Off Grid Cold Climate System

jfrands

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Joined
Apr 20, 2022
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Hello, first post. I built a small system for my off grid cabin including an inverter, charge controller, 2 100aH 12V Lead Acid batteries and 2 solar panels. Cost me well under $1000 This was fine for the last 2 years charging some tools, running a pump and some lights but I want more power for a refrigerator, satellite internet, etc. The cabin is unheated most of the time and here in MN it can get , -40 F/C. I keep them charged with the solar array when I am not there and it seems to work fine and keep them charged even in the cold temps. They are sheltered inside, in the shed portion of my structure. Obviously they work better when the weather is warm.

I looked into getting power put in from my local utility and it was $7000 to start. I figure I can build a pretty beefy system for that amount of money.

My Idea is to use something like the EG4 3kW Off-Grid Inverter,2 x 48V 100AH LiFePro batteries and a bank of 10 x 300-400W solar array. $6,751.56 plus incidentals. Seems dead simple to install, which I like. Should be more than enough power for my purposes, given that I am rarely there for more than a weekend, a week at most, and have only a couple continuous power needs.

BUT... I'm interested in practical aspects of using LiFePro in a 3.5 season cabin where I am there only on some weekends and it can get very cold and I'm going to heat up the cabin with my woodstove but want to be able to turn on the lights to do so. :)

What I don't know is: Will keeping the charged LiFePro batteries in cold temps damage them or reduce their life if they are not actively being used? I am assuming that they should ideally be in a conditioned space to function at optimum. Right now I have my system in the shed portion which is unheated. Should I install them in the heated space or will it not matter much as long as they are sheltered. It's a tiny cabin so space is limited. Would I have to shut them down for the winter if I am gone for a long time? I saw that the all in one systems will monitor temp and regulate charging and use if the temp is low. If it really is miserably cold am I going to have to go in there with a flashlight, and get the place warmed up and then turn the lights on? Which I am fine with. But I just don't want to kill my system because Minnesota.

Jared.
 
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I would put the batteries in some sort of insulated box. They won’t be damaged at -20 but -40 might be pushing it a bit. If you have a method of heating the batteries once you get there as long as they have low temperature protection you should be fine.
 
as long as they have low temperature protection you should be fine.
And there's the hitch. According to the spec sheets I read none of the EG4's have low temp protection so if they're below freezing and the SCC starts charging you're out $4000 in batteries.

You'll also need to budget in things like insulation and heaters and a thermostat and such if you want to use LFP's in sub-freezing temps.

That's one of the reasons I don't use LFP's at my camp. :( Even though I really REALLY want to, I just can't afford the up front cost AND all the extra stuff to warm them up.
 
And there's the hitch. According to the spec sheets I read none of the EG4's have low temp protection so if they're below freezing and the SCC starts charging you're out $4000 in batteries.

You'll also need to budget in things like insulation and heaters and a thermostat and such if you want to use LFP's in sub-freezing temps.

That's one of the reasons I don't use LFP's at my camp. :( Even though I really REALLY want to, I just can't afford the up front cost AND all the extra stuff to warm them up.
I just got a bunch of Trophy batteries for my camp. They have heaters in them. I built a shed that I'm insulating to house them. My place gets pretty cold (up north, at elevation). I'm also building an insulated cocoon for the batteries. I'm hopeful that will keep them warm enough to charge... I'll find out next winter...
 
So I talked to a couple battery sellers and they both said that their systems will automatically shut down to protect the battery at those temps, but they didn't recommend allowing them to get that cold, lest it violate their warrantee regarding "Excess environmental conditions"

But looking into a larger AGM bank, they don't really work well when cold anyway... So I think if I am going to do this I will need to have the ability to pull the batteries out in the depth of the winter when it it unheated and I am not often there anyways.
So now I am thinking that the server rack batteries seem pretty easy to pull out, but still kind of a pain to figure out what to do with at home.

The other option would be an EcoFLow Delta Pro or similar large solar generator, where I could just unplug it from the cabin and wheel it away during the really bad times, but also be able to bring it from home, warmed and ready to plug in when I get there? Seems the the price per KwH is almost double though... 10.8KWH of Ecoflow is $9297. Or a lot less... A 3kW off grid LG4 all in one plus two of their server rack batteries is 3787, though It would take more work to build something plug and play. Anyone build a "Solar Generator" on wheels with those components?
 
So I talked to a couple battery sellers and they both said that their systems will automatically shut down to protect the battery at those temps, but they didn't recommend allowing them to get that cold, lest it violate their warrantee regarding "Excess environmental conditions"

But looking into a larger AGM bank, they don't really work well when cold anyway... So I think if I am going to do this I will need to have the ability to pull the batteries out in the depth of the winter when it it unheated and I am not often there anyways.
So now I am thinking that the server rack batteries seem pretty easy to pull out, but still kind of a pain to figure out what to do with at home.

The other option would be an EcoFLow Delta Pro or similar large solar generator, where I could just unplug it from the cabin and wheel it away during the really bad times, but also be able to bring it from home, warmed and ready to plug in when I get there? Seems the the price per KwH is almost double though... 10.8KWH of Ecoflow is $9297. Or a lot less... A 3kW off grid LG4 all in one plus two of their server rack batteries is 3787, though It would take more work to build something plug and play. Anyone build a "Solar Generator" on wheels with those components?
My understanding (but frankly based on nothing but internet info) is that cold is ok for storage, but heat is the real killer. If I were you, i would just try it. I have left my lifopo4 Bluetti in -30F temps and it has worked just fine. Hauling server rack batteries is not piece of cake. I know it’s risking $3k, but I think it’s a safe risk.
 
The big Hazzard (or damage) comes from charging at cold temperatures.
 
Why are you mentioning Li Ion batteries? Do you mean LiFePo?

Those are two drastically different cell chemistry’s
LiFePo4 is one of many Li-ion chemistries but it is still Li-Ion.....
FWIW I destroyed a bank of Winston LiFeYPO4 batteries at our off grid property. Seems their cold weather charging claims were pure BS...
 
LiFePo4 is one of many Li-ion chemistries but it is still Li-Ion.....
FWIW I destroyed a bank of Winston LiFeYPO4 batteries at our off grid property. Seems their cold weather charging claims were pure BS...
Can you explain what happened?
 
Can you explain what happened?
We own and off grid property and we are converting it the solar I would like to use lithium iron phosphate batteries without having to have a heated room for them. Winston make some rather bogus claims that there yttrium doped LiFEPo4 cells can be charged at below 0F.. They sure can, if you want to ruin them...This is why I treated it as a sacrificial test bank. New plan is a 12' deep basement, under the new addition with a super insulated battery room that has it's own LPG heater that turns on /off automatically..
 
A working load on the batteries will add some heat just from the internal resistance.

Might also try some cheap FLA to keep things heated to your requirements, between recharging opportunities from solar or whatever to only recharge the FLA below 32F, and to also recharge the LiFePO4 batteries above 32F.

Another thought is to use thermal storage to keep things just warm enough, the downside being that it will also need to be heated up if for some reason it gets below your target temp. If you use water, perhaps use the expanding ice to close/open a duct or switch.

If you have liquid water nearby, even if under ice, rigging up a heat exchanger under the ice pumped with some environmentally friendly PEG might give you the heat you need to keep the batteries just warm enough.

Burying the batteries 8 feet or so below ground might keep them just warm enough too, though that’s also a lot of wire, depending upon the load they drive, voltage and ac vs dc.
 
A working load on the batteries will add some heat just from the internal resistance.

Might also try some cheap FLA to keep things heated to your requirements, between recharging opportunities from solar or whatever to only recharge the FLA below 32F, and to also recharge the LiFePO4 batteries above 32F.

Another thought is to use thermal storage to keep things just warm enough, the downside being that it will also need to be heated up if for some reason it gets below your target temp. If you use water, perhaps use the expanding ice to close/open a duct or switch.

If you have liquid water nearby, even if under ice, rigging up a heat exchanger under the ice pumped with some environmentally friendly PEG might give you the heat you need to keep the batteries just warm enough.

Burying the batteries 8 feet or so below ground might keep them just warm enough too, though that’s also a lot of wire, depending upon the load they drive, voltage and ac vs dc.
Be aware of your water table and possible flooding from snow melt.
 
Hello, first post. I built a small system for my off grid cabin including an inverter, charge controller, 2 100aH 12V Lead Acid batteries and 2 solar panels. Cost me well under $1000 This was fine for the last 2 years charging some tools, running a pump and some lights but I want more power for a refrigerator, satellite internet, etc. The cabin is unheated most of the time and here in MN it can get , -40 F/C. I keep them charged with the solar array when I am not there and it seems to work fine and keep them charged even in the cold temps. They are sheltered inside, in the shed portion of my structure. Obviously they work better when the weather is warm.

I looked into getting power put in from my local utility and it was $7000 to start. I figure I can build a pretty beefy system for that amount of money.

My Idea is to use something like the EG4 3kW Off-Grid Inverter,2 x 48V 100AH LiFePro batteries and a bank of 10 x 300-400W solar array. $6,751.56 plus incidentals. Seems dead simple to install, which I like. Should be more than enough power for my purposes, given that I am rarely there for more than a weekend, a week at most, and have only a couple continuous power needs.

BUT... I'm interested in practical aspects of using LiFePro in a 3.5 season cabin where I am there only on some weekends and it can get very cold and I'm going to heat up the cabin with my woodstove but want to be able to turn on the lights to do so. :)

What I don't know is: Will keeping the charged LiFePro batteries in cold temps damage them or reduce their life if they are not actively being used? I am assuming that they should ideally be in a conditioned space to function at optimum. Right now I have my system in the shed portion which is unheated. Should I install them in the heated space or will it not matter much as long as they are sheltered. It's a tiny cabin so space is limited. Would I have to shut them down for the winter if I am gone for a long time? I saw that the all in one systems will monitor temp and regulate charging and use if the temp is low. If it really is miserably cold am I going to have to go in there with a flashlight, and get the place warmed up and then turn the lights on? Which I am fine with. But I just don't want to kill my system because Minnesota.

Jared.
I'm finding the consensus for off grid camps with -30°F winters is to use LiFePo three seasons and take them home for the winter. Keep a couple lead-acid batteries for minimal winter use.
 
Winston make some rather bogus claims that there yttrium doped LiFEPo4 cells can be charged at below 0F.. They sure can, if you want to ruin them...This is why I treated it as a sacrificial test bank.

What was your charge rate at those low temps with the Winstons with the yttrium?

Did you exceed .05 to .1C or have a way to artificially limit your solar array to such? Unless you do, instead of intercalating, they just rapidly plate. If it falls between say 15 to -5f, then no more than .05C !

Thing is, depending on your power budget engineering, this low rate may be impractical unless you design around it.
 
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