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LiFePo for turbine engine starting DIY

Flyeyes

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Jul 10, 2022
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This is sort of an edge case, but I'm interested in building a LiFePo "start cart/GPU" for a turbine airplane. The requirements are 28 (ish) volts, and the ability to source 800 amps -very- reliably for a few seconds, with the current rapidly declining towards 200 amps within 30 seconds.

The starter is limited to three 30 second starts (or attempts) within 3 minutes, then a 30 minute cooldown is required, so these loads would be brief.

In practice, the actual load on the starter does peak at 800 or so amps, but declines to negligible in 15-20 seconds

A secondary use would be to power the aircraft's electrical systems while on the ground, for a maximum of 70 or so amps for maybe an hour or two. There are two onboard generators capable of providing 200 amps (main) or 70 amps (backup) and the systems will never approach those limits on the ground except for a second or so to test the electric deicing.

I know the cells are capable of this, since electric cars routinely dump very high currents into the motors.

A failure of the battery or wiring after fuel is introduced and before the engine is turning fast enough to spin itself can result in a "hot start" which is potentially very bad and very, very expensive.

Most of the BMSs I see though are not capable of more than 50-100 amps continuous.

Is it feasible to make an "8s" battery with something like EVE cells, and just bypass the BMS with heavy gauge wiring/bus bars for the starting loads?

I would anticipate using a commercial BMS for charging and the continuous loads
 
Based on your need for starting Amps I would specify Automotive Grade LFP cells that are matched. It would be worth the premium you would have to pay. Yes it is possible to bypass a BMS for a short duration load like that. The advantage of Automotive Grade and matched cells is it would reduce the risk of a cell going into reverse. I would use a high Amperage contactor for that load.
 
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Excellent, thank you.

I should probably point out the reason that GPU starts are often preferred, when the aircraft has two onboard sealed lead acid batteries that are each capable of starting the engine.

The onboard batteries, fully charged, are at about 25.5 volts, and this will sag into the high teens for the first couple of seconds during the start.

A "start cart" will typically produce around 28 volts, with little to no voltage sag.

This results in quicker and cooler starts, which are easier on the engine and the starter. There are of course commercially available start carts that are generator/battery trailers, but the are big, expensive, and it's no fun to just buy something when you could potential make something better.
 
Aren't lead-acid starting batteries perfect at starting engines? High amps, no BMS, less expensive.
Good point, but they don't get to the 28 volts, which is part of the key to cooler starts. The other advantage of the LiFePo is lower internal resistance, which should translate to less voltage sag as the starter is winding up.
 
Good point, but they don't get to the 28 volts, which is part of the key to cooler starts. The other advantage of the LiFePo is lower internal resistance, which should translate to less voltage sag as the starter is winding up.
You might search "28V Lead-Acid Portable Starting Units"
 
You might search "28V Lead-Acid Portable Starting Units"
More out there than the last time I looked, and that's the first time I've seen the 28v lead acid battery. One other thing though, and that's calendar life and self discharge. Lead acid batteries rarely last more than about five years, and less when regularly used for starting. Weak. batteries lead to hotter starts. I've converted my two golf carts (one used exclusively as a tug for the airplane) to lithium and my maintenance has plummeted on each of them, in spite of the fact that I routinely abuse the cart, and will let it sit unattended for a month at a time occasionally.
 
I have made 6 portable packs off these cells for starting/jumping cars and stuff.

I have started my Cat 416b Backhoe with both configurations. This spring I have to crank it for a couple minutes with the big pack to get it started and they never legged. I will see if I can check the amperage for you.

They are SAB 60280 55ah cells that used to be available from BatteryHookUp....I think they are still on Ebay. Mine were bought used. I have four packs of 4p5s and two packs of 4s.

 

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800A divided by 8 batteries in parallel= 100A per battery. All you need is a 1/4" x 2.5" tin plated copper bus bar like my Solar system has. I have 10 batteries (48V 280aH) with 370A max or 37A each.

You just need about $16,000 and labor to build your own.
 
With your use case look at a premium bms - possibly with a contactor. (Or maybe without the contactor on the discharge - because a shutdown of the battery would be worse on the engine than the damage of the cells).

I put a Batrium bms in my MotorHome- I wanted to keep the boost ability to help start the big Diesel engine with the lithium house bank.

I don’t know if that would be the right use case for you or not - Orion & Rec-Bms were two others I looked at. With some of these you may be able to use a 9s battery (but that voltage may end up too high).

Look at electriccarparts.com they used to deal with car conversations. I really liked the fortune cells and thought about using the 100ah cells - but they were a bit too expensive and not energy dense enough for my application. (I did use 25ah fortune cells to make a portable battery and I REALLY LOVE those cells)! The specs says the 100ah cells can be at a 2C discharge with up to a 6C for 10 seconds. A 8p8s battery sounds interesting.

Good Luck with whatever you do and if you decide to try this project - keep us informed.
 
Looks like an ideal candidate for a supercapacitor/LiFePO4 hybrid.
 
This forum is great. Everyone from someone living in a van, to someone making a start cart for their jet.
Please post jet pics ?
 
If you don't need alot if capacity, but need alot of starting power, look at Headway type cells. They are LFP but have a high C rating (like 200A) per cell.

But note: If you need to pull 800A, it's not enough to series 8 cells, you need to parallel the cells.
For example: if you go with headway cells, that each one can handle 200A, you need to build 8 packs of cells in series, but each pack is built of 4 (or more for longevity) parallel cells.

The same goes for high capacity prismatic cells, but I think it's a waste if capacity.
You need to do the math of how much capacity you really need for those 3, 30 second startups.

Take a look at these:

Although used, sometimes Battery Hookup has new ones also. But the used are really cheap (in price).

Also look at this pack, which is already in 24v configuration:

 
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If you don't need alot if capacity, but need alot of starting power, look at Headway type cells.
I second that recommendation. They are cylindrical so do not need compression and are easy to configure in serial and parallel packs. The Lego style cell holders allow room for circulation of air to make sure the cells cool off between starts.
 
This is sort of an edge case, but I'm interested in building a LiFePo "start cart/GPU" for a turbine airplane. The requirements are 28 (ish) volts, and the ability to source 800 amps -very- reliably for a few seconds, with the current rapidly declining towards 200 amps within 30 seconds.

The starter is limited to three 30 second starts (or attempts) within 3 minutes, then a 30 minute cooldown is required, so these loads would be brief.

In practice, the actual load on the starter does peak at 800 or so amps, but declines to negligible in 15-20 seconds

A secondary use would be to power the aircraft's electrical systems while on the ground, for a maximum of 70 or so amps for maybe an hour or two. There are two onboard generators capable of providing 200 amps (main) or 70 amps (backup) and the systems will never approach those limits on the ground except for a second or so to test the electric deicing.

I know the cells are capable of this, since electric cars routinely dump very high currents into the motors.

A failure of the battery or wiring after fuel is introduced and before the engine is turning fast enough to spin itself can result in a "hot start" which is potentially very bad and very, very expensive.

Most of the BMSs I see though are not capable of more than 50-100 amps continuous.

Is it feasible to make an "8s" battery with something like EVE cells, and just bypass the BMS with heavy gauge wiring/bus bars for the starting loads?

I would anticipate using a commercial BMS for charging and the continuous loads
How portable do you need this to be?

70A at what voltage?

Do you already have a start cart to convert to LFP, or are you starting from scratch?
 
I’m liking a lot of the suggestions, thanks to everyone (but please don’t stop if you have anything else to add)

The 70 amps is probably generous, realistically with all the radios but not resistance heat or deice I’m usually under 40 amps. This is at 28 volts nominal to run the radios, with the occasional spike to run a hydraulic power pack (dc electric motor powering a hydraulic pump to raise or lower the landing gear for testing on jacks).

it would also be useful to have backup power in the hangar, to run lights, fans, and open the large bifold door in the event of a mains outage

I’m starting from scratch, although I already have a lead acid “start cart” of sorts that is populated by old starting batteries that no longer meet airworthiness requirements (85% of nominal capacity). These batteries stay on a desulfating trickle charger, and I generally have 2-3 wired in parallel, but they all die early deaths. The charger is the specific model number recommended by the battery manufacturer.

I’ve been using a 24v fully assembled LiFePo battery for the avionics stuff, but it’s not rated for the starting amp draws.

i’ve converted my 2 golf carts to LiFePo, and this has made my life much easier. One is a 48v cart using very expensive Relion drop in replacements which are awesome. The 48v cart is used for transportation at a second home, and since changing to lithium my maintenance has dropped by about 80%.

The other cart is an ancient 36v EZGO, and I went super cheap, dropping three Ampere Time 50 amp hour 12v batteries off of Amazon the last time the lead acids gave up. This is the “hangar cart,” and is used mostly to tow airplanes to and from the fuel farm. Apart from making sure the charger isn’t plugged in when the temperature is below freezing, it’s been flawless.

my LiFePo batteries just work, are lighter, and require essentially zero maintenance. This is why I’m interested in building a LiFePo start cart/ground power unit.
 
If you don't need alot if capacity, but need alot of starting power, look at Headway type cells. They are LFP but have a high C rating (like 200A) per cell.

But note: If you need to pull 800A, it's not enough to series 8 cells, you need to parallel the cells.
For example: if you go with headway cells, that each one can handle 200A, you need to build 8 packs of cells in series, but each pack is built of 4 (or more for longevity) parallel cells.

The same goes for high capacity prismatic cells, but I think it's a waste if capacity.
You need to do the math of how much capacity you really need for those 3, 30 second startups.

Take a look at these:

Although used, sometimes Battery Hookup has new ones also. But the used are really cheap (in price).

Also look at this pack, which is already in 24v configuration:

That looks like what I need, exactly.
 
This forum is great. Everyone from someone living in a van, to someone making a start cart for their jet.
Please post jet pics ?
Not a jet, but small SETP (Single Engine Turboprop). It has a single Pratt & Whitney PT-6 engine which has astonishing reliability. It can climb from sea level to its normal cruise altitude of 23-27,000 feet in about 17 minutes, and then cruises about 280 mph (240 Knots) while burning 28 gallons per hour of Jet fuel. Ours is the smaller red and white one ;)tempImageB3BVSh.png
 
Cool project!
To get 800a output you must have some massive battery cables running to the starter. How frequent are crank/no start or cranking a second time in attempt to start? IE how often does this get put to use more than once per day?

Normally, I'd be yelling and screaming about needing a BMS. But, your engine costs much more than any BMS.
I'd run the charge and the 70a discharge through the BMS and have some visible indicator of "ok to start" and a visible SOC to know if you've got enough juice to try again.
 
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