Lifepo4 on its side ??

[Frank in Thailand]

I know lead acid.... It's clear.
It will leak acid.

But for Lifepo4 cells, does it matter?
As long as the emergency ventilation is free...

It is a lot easier to stack higher!

I don't see anyone do it, but would it be a problem?
Is there a good reason not to do it ?

 

[Justin Laureltec]

This depends on the manufacturer, really... some manufacturers will say that it's fine, others will say upright only and/or provide specific alternative orientations like on its side is okay but on its end is not. There are various reasons for this, including how the battery is constructed internally - some may not be appropriately braced internally to be able to be installed on their sides (ie after years of use and vibration, components in a horizontal position that were designed for a vertical position may become loose) as well as heat dissipation concerns, as a battery installed on its side will produce and dissipate heat differently than a battery installed upright; there are also potential issues with the battery terminal orientation, as laying a battery on its side may bring battery terminals / connectors closer to a potentially conductive surface.

Bottom line, go by the battery manufacturer's instructions regarding acceptable installation orientation, since the manufacturer (should) know how their battery is constructed and how it will withstand various orientations.

 

[jasonhc73]

Short answer:
Any direction is fine.
LiFePO4 is not a liquid-filled battery.

 

[MisterSandals]

LiFePO4 is not a liquid-filled battery.

Does the "filling" liquify when it gets warm or hot? (which makes it a liquid?)

It looks like the pouches more or less fill the inner form of the cell container. I have not seen a production video that suggests one way or the other.

 

[Jejochen]

Short answer:
Any direction is fine.
LiFePO4 is not a liquid-filled battery.

follow directions by manufacturer. not all cells are constructed equal.
example:

Blog - LiFePO4 | shop.GWL.eu

shop.gwl.eu

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Thank you all for replying.

Yes, I understand that weight might be a problem, if stacked too high.

For heat dissipation, I don't see how that can be an issue.
A cell in the middle of a 48v or 96v bank have only its top and bottom to release heat (if any)

For that it doesn't matter placed direction.
In fact, on its side the top and bottom are "free" and can do more heat dissipation.

Fibrations??
God! I hope not for solar storage system!! Earthquake could make the connections go lose, but more likely crash the house on top of it

Liquid?
I don't see how that can be a problem.
The separator "paper" (by lack of knowing better English word for it)
Is "soaked", after this, the liquid does not move.

Battleborn doesn't make it a problem

Other website show the lifepo4 have plates, like lead acid and low liquid level.

I guess I need to find a YouTube to find a video on cut in half lifepo4

Yes, there is This amazing video!

After some googling..

Our Lifepo4 have the same type of pouches inside.
Together they make the capacity.
It is not one big pouch, but more then one.

Nissan leave appear to have cells on its side, but I don't know if those are lifepo4.

It makes sense to have the cells up straight, or on the short side.
Long side should also not be a problem.
The cells are vacuum.
In a vacuum without air bubbles, the liquid stay in the same location, especially if it can not deform!

For "upsidedown"..
I read that this could prevent the safety vent from opening.

Sadly I was not able to find a person who made video of "our" type of cells.

Reason for asking is clear, I like to put them on their side for space issues.

I still have the 16* 200Ah in my battery room, and planning to keep them there for atleast 3 months.

I'm building 16 de-sulfator, (based on the 555 timer)
For the 200ah it will take 6 to 10 weeks for de-sulphation.

Sadly I'm not even sure if that is the real problem.. as it wasn't age or lack of water but too high voltage that killed them.

Anyways, it won't hurt either.
And after 3 months they are as fully charged as possible.

After this, do tests and maybe I can use them as additional backup storage.
Normally it wouldn't have to cycle at all.
Only during the long rainy season the sun might not be enough to fully recharge the lifepo4.

As long as they are there, space is limited.

For first temporary setup they co sideways.
Later I might make raised floor and put them under

(With enough air vents)

That even would make it possible to have the cells 1 mm separated from eachother, provide maximum cooling.

With 0.3C max charging and 0.1 discharge..
There should not be a lot of heat.
Still.... If the place is there to do, then why wouldn't I?

 

[Steve_S]

Don't guess and don't listen to whatever comments. Every company has information & spec sheets, follow the Manufacturers guidelines, they know what they made and what I will take & won't. 2nd guessing manufacturers or not Reading the Manual (RTFM) causes 90% of the problems people have. Make NO ASSUMPTIONS unless you want to end up being an ASS ! Assumptions are really good at doing that.

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Battleborn...

https://battlebornbatteries.com/lifepo4-batteries-mounting-position/

Did you read?

They are manufacturer?

 

[Supervstech]

Thank you all for replying.

Yes, I understand that weight might be a problem, if stacked too high.

For heat dissipation, I don't see how that can be an issue.
A cell in the middle of a 48v or 96v bank have only its top and bottom to release heat (if any)

For that it doesn't matter placed direction.
In fact, on its side the top and bottom are "free" and can do more heat dissipation.

Fibrations??
God! I hope not for solar storage system!! Earthquake could make the connections go lose, but more likely crash the house on top of it

Liquid?
I don't see how that can be a problem.
The separator "paper" (by lack of knowing better English word for it)
Is "soaked", after this, the liquid does not move.

Battleborn doesn't make it a problem

Other website show the lifepo4 have plates, like lead acid and low liquid level.

I guess I need to find a YouTube to find a video on cut in half lifepo4

Yes, there is This amazing video!

After some googling..

Our Lifepo4 have the same type of pouches inside.
Together they make the capacity.
It is not one big pouch, but more then one.

Nissan leave appear to have cells on its side, but I don't know if those are lifepo4.

It makes sense to have the cells up straight, or on the short side.
Long side should also not be a problem.
The cells are vacuum.
In a vacuum without air bubbles, the liquid stay in the same location, especially if it can not deform!

For "upsidedown"..
I read that this could prevent the safety vent from opening.

Sadly I was not able to find a person who made video of "our" type of cells.

Reason for asking is clear, I like to put them on their side for space issues.

I still have the 16* 200Ah in my battery room, and planning to keep them there for atleast 3 months.

I'm building 16 de-sulfator, (based on the 555 timer)
For the 200ah it will take 6 to 10 weeks for de-sulphation.

Sadly I'm not even sure if that is the real problem.. as it wasn't age or lack of water but too high voltage that killed them.

Anyways, it won't hurt either.
And after 3 months they are as fully charged as possible.

After this, do tests and maybe I can use them as additional backup storage.
Normally it wouldn't have to cycle at all.
Only during the long rainy season the sun might not be enough to fully recharge the lifepo4.

As long as they are there, space is limited.

For first temporary setup they co sideways.
Later I might make raised floor and put them under

(With enough air vents)

That even would make it possible to have the cells 1 mm separated from eachother, provide maximum cooling.

With 0.3C max charging and 0.1 discharge..
There should not be a lot of heat.
Still.... If the place is there to do, then why wouldn't I?

Sulphation? On LiFePO4? It doesn’t exist...

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Yes, I know.

Lifepo4 doesn't do sulphate..

My 16* 12v@200ah dead deep cycle lead acid batteries might have.

Like I wrote, they aren't old or went without water (also not with lifepo4 )
But got charged at 78 volt.
That is 19.5v per 12v battery...
They didn't like it...
And now are about dead.
48v @800ah lead acid give 3 hours power after sundown

 

[SolarRat]

Battleborn...

https://battlebornbatteries.com/lifepo4-batteries-mounting-position/

Did you read?

They are manufacturer?

BB's use cylindrical cells, which can go in any position.

 

[Steve_S]

Battleborn...
https://battlebornbatteries.com/lifepo4-batteries-mounting-position/
Did you read?
They are manufacturer?

Battleborn ASSEMBLES Components, they don't make the cells or BMS.
YES I can READ - maybe you should read that EVERY MANUFACTURER is different and EACH have their own specifications.
Maybe you did not intend to be Rude but that was a Rude Response.

 

[Justin Laureltec]

It appears the OP decided the answers before posting the question. *shrug*

@fhorst : Each manufacturer has different specifications. If you have Battle Born batteries, follow Battle Born's recommendations. If you have Victron batteries, follow Victron's recommendations. Do not think that one manufacturer's recommendations are applicable to any other manufacturer's batteries.

RTFM, and follow the manufacturer recommendations. Doing otherwise will put you and your system at risk of failure or worse.

 

[Frank in Thailand]

For now, my cells are nicely with their feet on the floor.

I didn't intend to be rude.
Just like most of you, here to learn and teach.
(Teach the teacher)

For lead-acid it's straight forward that putting them on the side gives problems.

Li-ion pouches can go any direction, lifepo4 round cylinder cells can.

I'm puzzled why lifepo4 would not.

The manufacturer... And manuals.
They cover their asses to be safe.

Anyone else read the thread about frying a MPPT?

How Will tried to make it die by doing that what the manual and manufacture say you Never should do??

I know, RTFM.. listen to papa, be a good follower...

Yes,I read the (whole) manual. And if it puzzles me, I'll ask.
Not to be an @ss to neglected the guidance of the manufacturer...
But see it as that. Guidelines.

I'm not here to only blindly obey, but to question them, test them.

It doesn't take a scientist to know that I'm not really army material
I like to look and decide for myself.

And yes, I use the manual (I'm one of those guys who actually so read them) as guidelines.

I still don't know why they should not go on their side.

Lucky I know people who know people, far enough up the chain to get a real answer, with serious explanation why is is or isn't a problem to do.

I know those people as they appreciate curiosity, it keeps them sharp minded, open.

There are enough followers, and that's good. There is no negative tone there.

The world would go crazy with many people like me
But.. people like me who question the "known truths" are the ones who discovered the world ain't flat.(Or is it Flat? ?)
(that's funny)

I'll keep you guys posted!
It will take some time to go up and down the chain.

Or, if someone already made that trip, please share that information!

 

[Supervstech]

While I dont think the chemistry cares about orientation, some designs are better suited to one way vs the other.
As stated, cylinder cells have no preference themselves, especially the low C rate ones, but in a stack, or a high rate of discharge, some assemblies could overheat more quickly in the wrong orientation.
Pouch cells for instance need support from gravity failure and if hanging from a common bussbar, flipping them upside could lead to fatigue... especially if in mobile use.
I'm sure I could come up with reasons for many manufacturer rules on it...

 

[jasonhc73]

Pouch LiFePO4 batteries are essentially the same as cylinder batteries, just not rolled up, it's just packaging.

When stacked and sealed into their container, their orientation often ends up sideways, ie vertical.

Then sandwiched next to its brother in the opposite orientation. Basically imagine two loaves of bread shuffled together like cards. One up, one down, one up, one down, the only thing that matters, in the end, is the series made by the alternating oriented groups of pouches squished together making a loaf of bread batteries. The loaf of bread doesn't have an up or down or sideways.

The battery doesn't care. What does matter is the packaging the battery is in and how many are stacked squishing everything down. As long as that packaging is solid then it's up to good judgment and basic common sense how many can be stacked.

 

[Frank in Thailand]

I'm sure I could come up with reasons for many manufacturer rules on it...

In the past, I was responsible for writing and proofreading manuals.
For software.
Next job would have been making them for not English language people, in crazy simple English to understand how to operate really expensive complicated equipment.

Your great grandmother would be able to understand how to operate...

And thrust me, that isn't an easy job!!

Life threw a dice and things changed.
Anyways,
I know manuals, and the safety manufacturers build into it.
For this reason.

Theoretical hanging batteries on their poles, might possibly work for ages.
Having it in your oftheroad car....
Bumpy rides...
Not so.
The trick of making manual and "rules" is to think of all those craziness and rule them out.
That makes for most people a lot more sense then writing " yes, you can hang them, but only in non moving, not shaking, no fibrations location"
You simply say
"Feet on the ground"

On this moment, "feet on the ground" is the orientation used.

I probably will raise the lead acid array about 20-25 cm so I can slide the lifepo4 under.

Alternatively on their sides in front of the lead acid.

(Before people comment on the wires..
Yes they are now parallel and serial at the same time.
They are 16* defective 12v 200Ah batteries.
With normal nice cable under load some 12v drop below 8v.
Sadly what battery differs from time to time. There is no good and a few bad.
This is after trial and error the only setup that gives 3 or 4 hours power after a day charging.
Series with 3 + and 3 - parallel cables give about 2 hours.
After re-wire so many times, I stop care about nice. It's temporary till the lifepo4 works.
Then they go (stand alone) on de-sulphation for 8 weeks)

I hope the BMS arrives soon!!

 

[Supervstech]

In the past, I was responsible for writing and proofreading manuals.
For software.
Next job would have been making them for not English language people, in crazy simple English to understand how to operate really expensive complicated equipment.

Your great grandmother would be able to understand how to operate...

And thrust me, that isn't an easy job!!

Life threw a dice and things changed.
Anyways,
I know manuals, and the safety manufacturers build into it.
For this reason.

Theoretical hanging batteries on their poles, might possibly work for ages.
Having it in your oftheroad car....
Bumpy rides...
Not so.
The trick of making manual and "rules" is to think of all those craziness and rule them out.
That makes for most people a lot more sense then writing " yes, you can hang them, but only in non moving, not shaking, no fibrations location"
You simply say
"Feet on the ground"

On this moment, "feet on the ground" is the orientation used.

I probably will raise the lead acid array about 20-25 cm so I can slide the lifepo4 under.

Alternatively on their sides in front of the lead acid.

(Before people comment on the wires..
Yes they are now parallel and serial at the same time.
They are 16* defective 12v 200Ah batteries.
With normal nice cable under load some 12v drop below 8v.
Sadly what battery differs from time to time. There is no good and a few bad.
This is after trial and error the only setup that gives 3 or 4 hours power after a day charging.
Series with 3 + and 3 - parallel cables give about 2 hours.
After re-wire so many times, I stop care about nice. It's temporary till the lifepo4 works.
Then they go (stand alone) on de-sulphation for 8 weeks)

I hope the BMS arrives soon!!

Nice rack! Imagine that filled to the brim with LFP!

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Lol...

If I have too much money...
With 152Ah cells, one layer is 5 cells, possible 6.

4 layers, 20* 152 on 51.2v
3040Ah@51.2 = 150kw/h

That is really a lot of power.
Almost enough for a small village.
(In Thailand it would be)

Most villager's don't have refrigerator, air-conditioning or washing machine!

But then my solar panels ain't enough..

Lol.

Realistic?
That nice rack will be cut into smaller pieces, and the iron will be refused.

The battery room with own air-conditioning will become electricity closet, inverters outside the room, in special fine maze closet.
Fine maze, no ants, flies, gecko, bees, mouse, or other can enter.
And air-filters (like in your car) to keep the air clean from Isaan red clay dust.

The clay dust is not a problem... Till the rain season. With the high humidity, the clay dust become soft wet clay...
And that is a problem

The LFP go for safety inside the electricity cabinets / closet.

While lifepo4 is not that sensitive for temperature, Thailand our region can have up 45 degrees Celsius.
Probably, due to global warming, even higher in the next 10 years.
45 was exceptional if it ever occurred 15 years ago.
Now every year have a few or more days of +45...

 

[Zucca]

Yes I know it is an old thread, but I think it is useful to close a circle.
Here the feedback from the manufacturer representative Amy about orientation for the EVE LF280K
Orientation does not matter.