LiFeYPO Cold environment batteries

[FilterGuy]

Hi folks,
I have a particular interest in LiFePO4 batteries that can survive cold environments. This includes both cold temperature charging and cold temperature storage.
Most of the batteries discussed on this forum tend to have a charge temp limit around 0c and storage temp seems to vary wildly. However, some batteries are designed for lower temps. I thought it might be good to start a thread about these batteries to share knowledge and experience.

The low-temp batteries I am aware of are:

• Valence https://lithiumwerks.com/valence-batteries/
• Dakota Power https://dakotalithium.com
• Grepow: https://www.grepow.com/page/low-temperature-battery.html
• Thundersky-Winston: http://en.winston-battery.com/index.php/products/power-battery/item/wb-lyp100aha?category_id=182

Grepow and Winston are LiFeYPO. I do not know the chemistry of the Valence or Dakota batteries but I am pretty sure they are LiFeYPO as well.

I am curious what experience others have had with LiFeYPO.

• Have you found other low-temp batteries?
• Besides the low temp, is there other attributes of the LiFeYPO that is different than 'normal' LiFePO?
• Have you run into problems with any of these batteries?
• Have you had any problems with the company?
  From other threads, I have heard that Valence ignores you if you don't buy from them and that Dakota Power has a delivery problem.

 

[FilterGuy]

Winston specs


I have a message out to them asking about storage temperatures.

 

[FilterGuy]

Dakota Batteries spec

 

[FilterGuy]

Valence is interesting, They have the lowest storage temperature I have seen but the charge temperature is much higher than what is typical with LiFeYPO.



Valence also has a rather proprietary BMS system that is a little hard to work with.

 

[FilterGuy]

GrePow do not seem to have cells that people on this forum would use, but I add them here for completeness.

 

[SolarQueen]

KiloVault just released a cold temperature LiFePo4. It has an internal heater is managed by the BMS. A few notes from the page:

• The 1800 CHLX heater is 96W while the 3600 CHLX heater is 192W.
• In both batteries, the heater starts at an external temperature of -5°C (23°F).
• Below an external temperature of -30°C (-22°F), the heat dissipation is too great to bring the battery up to temp.

 

[kimsv]

Very nice topic! I'm also looking for a battery with ability to work in cold climate. What's your reson looking at LiFeYPO rather than LTO?

 

[FilterGuy]

Very nice topic! I'm also looking for a battery with ability to work in cold climate. What's your reason looking at LiFeYPO rather than LTO?

LifeYPO is known to have better cold-environment behavior than regular LiFePO. I have not studied LTO so I can't say if is better or worse for my needs. Some of the things I will be looking at beside cold-temp attributes with LTO are cost (of course), safety (Thermal run-away?) and voltages (Can I build a good system with off-the-shelf chargers and inverters)? If you have any insights on this, please share!

 

[kimsv]

LifeYPO is known to have better cold-environment behavior than regular LiFePO. I have not studied LTO so I can't say if is better or worse for my needs. Some of the things I will be looking at beside cold-temp attributes with LTO are cost (of course), safety (Thermal run-away?) and voltages (Can I build a good system with off-the-shelf chargers and inverters)? If you have any insights on this, please share!

No sorry, not any more insight then that LTO is much more expensive upfront then LFO. If you consider cycles then it's probably closer in price, but I haven't done the math. I'll have to read up on LiFeYPO!

 

[FilterGuy]

Here is some info about KiloVault's self heating battery.



It is still plain LiFePO4 but it will use the charging current to heat itself up if it needs to.

This won't really solve my needs, but I'll bet it is perfect for some installations.

 

[FilterGuy]

Here is some info on Relion's self-heating battery:


Like the kilovault, this does not meet my needs but might be fine for others.

 

[FilterGuy]

Here is the info I got back about the Dakota batteries.
On Wed, Jan 1, 2020, 2:09 PM FG wrote:

>
Amped Outdoors <energizedoutdoors@gmail.com>
To:FG

FG, the batteries will work just fine and work great down to -20 and can be discharged even lower, it is just recommended to put a charge on the battery every 60-90 days. If you plan on doing that I think you will be just fine.

On Wed, Jan 1, 2020, 2:09 PM FG wrote:
the batteries 55+ AH are all capable of being run in series and parallel.
Great!! thanks for letting me know.

> The only issue you have is how extreme cold you are keeping these batteries when in storage?

That is correct.

The cabin is in the mountains of Montana. Typically, the temps will hover between 0 and 20F with it occasionally getting above 32F. Unfortunately, the temperatures will occasionally dip well below zero. It rarely gets below -15F, but the all time low is -42F.

In these times, the battery will not be connected so I am not worried about charging.... just storage.

I plan to have the batteries disconnected and in a well insulated box (R30) with a heating pad hooked directly to a 20 Watt solar panel. I ran the numbers on the thermal dynamics and I am fairly confident I can keep the box above -5 in all but the most extreme temperature events, but still need a battery that can sit for short periods at colder temps.

Your web site says:

Operating temperature
Ideal for rugged & harsh environments. Much better than SLA or other lithium’s. -20'F min, +120'F max optimal environmental operating temps

I assume this means the batteries are good down to -20F. Can they handle any lower when disconnected (Not operating)?

> I might suggest looking into LTO (Lithium Titanate) which can be charged and used down to -60 without issue.

I will look into that.

These batteries might work for me.

 

[kimsv]

Ok now I’ve read up on these battery’s and they seem really good. Definitely worth looking into for me. Have to run the numbers comparing against LTO also. Winston cells seem like a good choice, I mean if they can operate and charge in -45C they should be able to store in those temperatures right?! I’ve messaged the European distributor about this so I’ll post the answer if I get one.
So if we’re going the LiFeYPO4 route, will they perform good with OTS equipment with LiFePO4 charging profiles?

 

[FilterGuy]

So if we’re going the LiFeYPO4 route, will they perform good with OTS equipment with LiFePO4 charging profiles?

Everything I have seen indicates they will.

 

[kimsv]

Been comparing some stats now and seems like the LYP cells has a wider operating voltage range over the LFP cells. Screenshots from ev-power.eu that sells Winston here in Europe (also Sinopoly and Calb). The operating voltage at 80% DOD column also differs a bit as you can see. Still the voltage values for the LYP cells are lower and higher than the LFO so OTS charging profiles for LFP shouldn't bean issue to use. Perhaps a bit too much on the safe side?!

Calb 2.5V-3.65V:


Winston 2.5V-4.0V:


Sinopoly 2.65V-3.7V:


Edit: added URL:s.

 

[FilterGuy]

Thanks for the data @Kimsv. When I go for it I will be adjusting my voltages based on whichever battery I buy. However, you just made me realize something..... I need a BMS that can be adjusted. The Daly BMS that Will likes is not adjustable.

BTW: since you are dealing with cold, you might be interested in this thread:

How do you deal with freezing rain, or crusty snow that can't be brushed off?

 

[FilterGuy]

@ Kimsv
I finally started looking at the LTO cells. The voltage range is 'interesting':



I would definitely need to see what the equipment can be adjusted to and match things up. It might be harder to put together a system from off-the-shelf parts with these voltages.

 

[45North]

I'm new at this but using battery power to heat up Li batteries to a working voltage doesn't seem like a workable solution to me.
To state the obvious; the primary use case for these would be northern locations in the winter time. By definition the sun is low and there is very little insolation available to the PV panels for charging the batteries in the first place. And no extra juice for the "overhead" of heating cells.
Call me old fashioned, but, No thanks! I'll stick to my SLA's for now.
I know lead-acid is not the sexy new thing but they've been sitting outdoors and starting cars up here for years and will continue to be used 'till something better comes along.

 

[Bob B]

If weight isn't an issue, the Firefly batteries look promising .... Good cold performance and generally cheaper than LiFePo4 .... almost as good of cycles.

I was considering 3 of the 4V 450AH for my RV, but have decided I don't want that much weight. They are about 95 Lbs each.

 

[FilterGuy]

If weight isn't an issue, the Firefly batteries look promising .... Good cold performance and generally cheaper than LiFePo4 .... almost as good of cycles.

I was considering 3 of the 4V 450AH for my RV, but have decided I don't want that much weight. They are about 95 Lbs each.

Yes, the firefly look interesting from several aspects. If I stay with lead acid I will be looking very closely at those.