Lightning Took Out Sungold 6kW LF Sine Inverter--Problems with Replacement Parts

[Norwasian]

Those trees too... I know lightning is unpredictable but ...

Copper ground rods, and connected metal frames, are more attractive than wood, which is not very conductive.

 

[Luk88]

Copper ground rods, and connected metal frames, are more attractive than wood, which is not very conductive.

But at few million volts... A piece of wet wood is barely different to a copper pipe (I guess).

I once watched a video where they filmed lightning with some special super sensitive and fast camera and what happens in a cloud to earth lightning is that as the potential rises milliseconds before the lightning every tall object starts shooting "feelers" up. These look like tiny lightning going upwards. Most of them don't connect with anything and die down. But one or more meet the breaking down ionised air channel coming in discrete steps from above branching out at each step and then boom. We have the lightning (that has some phases too like energy goes from the earth up first - called return stroke, then there is often secondary lightning in the same ionised channel) and so on.

We're 1400' from a 500' tall broadcast tower, so in general, it acts as a lightning rod for the area, however, I've seen lighting strike the ground within 10' of a radio tower once (I used to work in the industry until retirement), so that obliterated my false notion that a tall metal object is always going to take the strike. Lightning can do strange things and almost demonically seem to "intentionally" hit where it wants, and not the "obvious" path of least resistance.

This seems to be "explained" as a branch of another lightning that goes through the tall object, but I saw lighting do enough weird things to know this is oversimplified. There is a lot about hot plasma we don't know.

I bet one of these days they will even "discover" ball lightning. But that's a separate matter.

 

[Norwasian]

But at few million volts... A piece of wet wood is barely different to a copper pipe (I guess).

I once watched a video where they filmed lightning with some special super sensitive and fast camera and what happens in a cloud to earth lightning is that as the potential rises milliseconds before the lightning every tall object starts shooting "feelers" up. These look like tiny lightning going upwards. Most of them don't connect with anything and die down. But one or more meet the breaking down ionised air channel coming in discrete steps from above branching out at each step and then boom. We have the lightning (that has some phases too like energy goes from the earth up first - called return stroke, then there is often secondary lightning in the same ionised channel) and so on.

I would still like to know what it is they do in Taiwan to prevent a direct strike on a building. Someone once tried to explain it, but it wasn't at all clear to me. They have something like a lightning rod on the roof of the building, which is attached to something electrical that is supposed to oppose those "feelers"--keep them from forming. Whatever it does is somehow opposite to what would otherwise naturally occur. And it seems to work. I was in worse electrical storms in Taiwan than in most any place I've ever been, and the buildings were never struck. In many areas, America has better technology: but in some things, Taiwan puts America to shame. Perhaps this is one of them.

And yes, I remember now that a lightning bolt reaches a million+ volts. I mixed up my figures earlier in saying 30,000+ ... that is the degrees Celsius, I think.

I guess it's that "feelers" stage, which cannot involve a million volts, can it?, that seems more logical to start with something highly conductive. If the voltage alone sufficed to create the strike, what need would there be of conductive lightning rods?

 

[MWeiss]

In the 1940s, my dad worked at Immaculate Labs in Stamford, CT, where they had a 10 million volt lightning generator. They did research for General Electric at the time, improving the electrical grid.

In my former field as a field engineer in the broadcast industry, we used dissipators, which look kind of like a bare tree branch, mounted to the very tops of radio towers. The idea was to spread the surface area to dissipate the charge buildup. The theory being that lightning prefers a path to a discreet metal object, not a fuzzy blur of metal objects.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Surge Protection Devices (SPD's) would protect from nearby lightning strike surges (lightning a few hundred feet away, hitting a tree for example), and they could protect from most grid surges (grid events, or lightning hitting grid components nearby), if you've layered these correctly. But, SPD's would probably not protect from a direct strike on the house or its systems.

Don't bust my bubble, after losing a magnum a few years back i bought stock in the midnite solar SPD division and I don't want none of your negativity in my life

 

[seneysolar]

The Sungold inverter is the ONLY piece of gear that failed. Now, for total disclosure, we had just gotten an MEP803A military generator hauled in the day before on a trailer. I had just connected it with a longer extension cable to hook into the system. The generator itself was not grounded yet, as it was to be removed from the trailer and placed on a pad soon after arrival. The storm hit just hours later. The generator was supplying power to an EG4 Chargeverter and this Sungold (in charge mode). The lightning hit the east-facing panel array on our west hillside. At first, I'd thought it took out the Growatt SC4880 charge controller, as it had gone dark after that event.

Did you make sure your new generator doesn't have a neutral ground bond? These LF inverters only want L+L+G. It will fault if it it has the neutral hooked to ground.
Perhaps using the Chargeverter at the same time "stepped" on the Sungold and it didn't actually make the transfer to charge mode when it was hooked up pre storm. Just a thought.

 

[MWeiss]

No, that was not the case. The charging setup was in use for over a year prior to the storm. All chargers worked reliably until til we got hit my lightning.
If anything was in the direct path of the strike, it would be my SC4880 charge controller, hooked directly to the array that was hit. It was not damaged at all. Only the SG product being used in charging mode. Because it was connected to wiring that went outdoors to the generator and that wiring probably was the antenna that brought the EMP into the system. Maybe if the SG wasn't chassis grounded to earth, it might have been okay, maybe not.

 

[seneysolar]

No, that was not the case. The charging setup was in use for over a year prior to the storm. All chargers worked reliably until til we got hit my lightning.
If anything was in the direct path of the strike, it would be my SC4880 charge controller, hooked directly to the array that was hit. It was not damaged at all. Only the SG product being used in charging mode. Because it was connected to wiring that went outdoors to the generator and that wiring probably was the antenna that brought the EMP into the system. Maybe if the SG wasn't chassis grounded to earth, it might have been okay, maybe not.

Right, but i was referring to it being the first day that it was ran with your new generator. In post 8 you mentioned it was supplying power to the Chargeverter at the same time, this could raise battery voltage enough to keep the SG from going into charge mode at that time (depending on the settings).

Also, homeowners insurance should cover lightning strikes for permanently installed equipment. Its worth checking into. In that case, make a claim and buy all new. Even components that haven't failed yet, likely will soon.

 

[MWeiss]

New generator and old generator , same grounding situation. And the SG charger would basically run full bore until the battery bank got over 95% before tapering. The two worked together nicely. Just that my old generator would trip its circuit breakers after 45 mins running 7500W load for a 13kW generator.

We had to drop homeowner's insurance in 2000 when our property tax assessment quintupled. Haven't been able to afford much since. Senior citizen on fixed income.

 

[Kornbread]

The next day I found out that the array was putting out 11 volts. I determined that the bypass diodes had shorted and so I popped the covers and measured a few, but visual showed a bunch of exploded diodes. After removing all the diodes, the array was making 165V and the charge controller was working. This array had taken a direct hit and the charge controller survived. But the wiring some 90' away, from the generator to the charging equipment induced voltage from the EMP and took out the poorly designed Chinese inverter/charger, while the EG4 product was still functional.

Not to be 'the one' but the eg4 is also manu in China. Some retailers like to advertise stateside customer service and may give the allusion of stateside manu products.

Anyhow, very interesting post. Very interesting subject. Incredible how the lightning jumped across the array.

 

[MWeiss]

Well frankly everything is made in China these days. But the specifications are higher for some products. The EG4 uses telecom grade power supplies. Probably a bit beefier than the SG stuff.

 

[seneysolar]

Well frankly everything is made in China these days. But the specifications are higher for some products. The EG4 uses telecom grade power supplies. Probably a bit beefier than the SG stuff.

In the end, Lightning does whatever it wants to. It does not care who made what.

Curious though, who makes the Chargeverter for EG4? Voltronic or Luxpower like their inverters? Or a completely different manufacturer?

 

[ricardocello]

Curious though, who makes the Chargeverter for EG4?

Hard to say, but the heavy lifting is done internally by these server grade rectifier modules:

http://www.suplet.com/public/uploads/product/document/SR4850x-1U%20Rectifier%20series.pdf

Chargeverter alternative

The two power supplies in the chargeverter are labeled: S312-SR4850-1U This appears to be a manufacturer data sheet for them: http://www.suplet.com/public/uploads/product/document/SR4850x-1U Rectifier series.pdf Not sure how the S312 number fits in. Presumably the CANbus lets you tweak the...

diysolarforum.com

The rest is just a microcontroller to talk to the modules to get the desired voltage and current, and then chassis and cabling.

Though according to the data sheet, "Module stop working" if It sees more than 300VAC on its input.

 

[MWeiss]

That's some good data on Chargeverter. I'd remembered looking up the modules and reading something like .99 power factor.

As for lightning, a lot depends on where the current flowed, whether it was common or differential mode. My guess is most is common mode current flow, which would explain why some modules survived.

 

[MWeiss]

I got the new fans from Sungold today and installed them and reassemble the 6kW inverter.

It's STILL shutting down with an error beep as soon as the fans start up.

Over $500 into repairs on this inverter and it is still not working!

I've run out of ideas. No idea why the fans start up and shut down the whole inverter with an error beep. When the fans start, the inverter should keep running. So now I'm thinking the controller board they sent me last month is defective fan controller.

I've been without a backup inverter charger since June 30 due to constant back and forth replacement parts and a little closer each time but still not fully operational.

 

[robbob2112]

I know has probably already been done - BUT - have you removed all boards and inspected the case for arc burn marks? Especially around the standoffs and ground screws. Also inspect all of the interconnecting cables if any for signs of a short or open.

From assembling computers - the first thing that is done it so health check the hardware and spin the fans and it will give a single beep if all is well the proceed. But if anything is wrong it will immediatly shutdown. I've had a problem where the motherboard had a solder joint sticking down to far and it would short to ground. I've also had many cases of cables where the pins werent fully inserted and when I plugged them on and the pin pushed back, etc....

I guess I am suggesting back to basics and make sure there isn't something simple going on.

 

[MWeiss]

I guess I am suggesting back to basics and make sure there isn't something simple going on.

Yes, I inspected everything. The damage was limited to some burned out MOSFETs on the original heat sink assembly, a burned transistor on the control PCB and a blown up PIC on the display board. And of course, both fans were non functional.

I replaced all the electronics, visually inspected all the wiring for pinched connections, shorts or burns. All was in pristine physical condition.

At first, they told me I needed to buy their fans for it to work properly. So I spend the $75 for the two fans and install them, expecting that to be the last piece of the puzzle, but nope. Something else is wrong. $490 for the power and control boards, $39 for the display and $75 for the two fans. I'm out just over $600 so far and still don't have a unit that works longer than 8 seconds.

I'm thinking something is off with the programming on the control board. Maybe they sent the wrong firmware, or somehow something's programmed wrong.

 

[MWeiss]

Sungold's technical support has been very good with this inverter issue. They finally figured out that the fan connectors were swapped. The one closest to the tachometer fan was not the one that fan should plug into! Once I swapped them, the unit works as is should.

 

[outsider]

A possible lesson here is to take a picture of the board before any disassembly begins.

 

[outsider]

Also maybe the old fans aren't dead, they were just reconnected wrong.