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Long term off-grid system design

toms

Solar Wizard
Joined
Jul 24, 2020
Messages
1,738
This might be a bit of a ramble, but i thought it might be helpful to some people who are about to set-up a completely off-grid system.

Where i live, there is no grid connection. I am surrounded by hundreds of properties that rely on off-grid systems for their electricity needs. My initial system was installed when we moved to our property in 2012. It was the first LiFePO4 system in the area, and most people were sceptical at first but after five or so years i had a steady stream of people coming to me for advice on setting up replacement systems for their failing units.

After a few years our power requirements increased dramatically, and i installed an additional completely independent system to cover secondary loads. This system can be switched to charge the primary batteries or power the primary load. I started helping other people install systems, and left their original (most often lead acid) systems in place, to provide trickle charger via AC chargers to their new LiFePO4 systems.

I had been advised by my cell manufacturer to not let my cells exceed 40degC, and have always airconditioned my battery room. Other people in the area had professionally installed LiFePO4 systems (mainly Pylontech) and they commonly fail around the 5-7 year mark due to heat exposure. The failure mode is that they start to suffer from voltage drop under load. I have found these systems will trip the BMS if they are loaded at 5kw (for example), but will happily provide 80% capacity if they are only loaded at 1kw. There are a few of these systems that have been like that for many years, with the Pylontechs being used to trickle a 1kw charge overnight into the new system. (thus allowing for a much smaller battery on the primary system).

My suggestion for anyone putting in a new off-grid system is to make sure that the area you have set aside for your system is big enough for two complete systems even if you don't initially purchase them. Ultimately, when you need to replace your system you can build your new system in place and either use your old system as a trickle charge additional capacity - or decommision.

I've seen first hand the stress that can occur due to power system failure in a completely off-grid system. (one of my generators has done more hours at other peoples houses than mine) When you design a system, have an answer written down for what you would do in the event of a component failure (have this answer for every component). Consider starting with two completely independent systems (these can be auto switched to your critical loads).
 
That was the failure symptom of my original set of simpliphi 3.5s from 2019. They replaced them with new ones but I sold those to configure a lightly larger bank. I can't confirm that they would do close to capacity with smaller loads, but when generator charging the voltage would raise way more than it should, and when low V, but still plenty of capacity, medium loads would cause the V to sag enough to trigger the ags. This was 14kWh on a schneider 6848. The batteries probably got into the high 90sF for a few hours a day for just a very small handful of times, but generally were at very reasonable temperatures. No temps below 35degF.

In 2012 I'd say you were a very early adopter of LiFe batteries.
 
Can you explain the decision to require 2 systems? Is it for security? Why wouldn't one have a bigger and better system instead?
 
It was explained, although I don't agree with the particular reasoning.
I meant I wanted a more "graphic" explanation of what to gain from it.
I actually get their point because they are actually totally off grid.
Though maybe one could claim "use generators in that case".
 
Not sure where you're located, but I'm in West Australia and temp ranges between -4c to 45c.
I built a solar passive mud brick house and made a special 2mx1m room at the south side of the house, as the power room
No heating or A/C.
The temp is constant at 18c - 22c year round.
Need to keep batteries on the south side in the southern hemisphere. North side in the Northern hemisphere
 
Can you explain the decision to require 2 systems? Is it for security? Why wouldn't one have a bigger and better system instead?
Two systems means you are more likely to have continuous power. Allowing space for multiple systems means you can replace old systems seamlessly.

There are plenty of options, this thread was written after getting back from helping someone with a professionally installed system that had prematurely reached its end of life. The install company was jo longer around.

I’ve seen too many systems fail over the years, having two complete systems removes most of the stress from the inevitable.

For those that have a single large system, the main advice is to have a plan in place for when it fails.

I agree there is no correct way, just food for thought here and sharing what works for me.
 
This principal alone is golden. In an era where we rely on "things" other than bare earth elements and raw resources, building a backup of a required system is the work of a wise man. I'm a believer of the 3 is 2, 2 is 1, and one is none philosophy. I was talked about - not in a good way - because of having several generators, many cans of fuel, food, comms, ect until a hurricane hit the area last year. I loaned a few things out to help folks, and I also saw where I was short on certain tool and equipment.
 
Interesting read; overall, good messaging. We are 💯% off-grid for the last 3.5 years at 7,000' in Colorado. We are currently slow building (just wife & I most days) a 4,000' new home that we started last summer. (We are dried in.) I often tell people that "The rule of thumb for off-grid living, is that you need a backup for your back up."

My solar room is 40'x40' with 13' side wall garage. Definitely big enough for 2 systems but never as big as I'd like. 😉

I Ironically, just yesterday we bought the first of 2 EG4 12,000XP's for the house to replace our current 6500EX that fully runs our 2 RV's with 5.6 kW of solar. It will stay put. One 12,000XP would probably be more than enough with our 21kW of panels. The reason for 2 12,000XP's, is we have 2 different LIFePO batteries.(6 LifePower4's & 2/3 PowerPros.) The other reason is redundancy.
 
The main goal is redundancy. Whether it's built in to a single system. Or in the form of a separate backup system. You don't want to have a single point failure, to leave you completely in the dark.
I think I'm closer to your idea, because why have ENTIRE system redundancy, when you can have redundancy of components only.
Eg sure have a 2nd inverter around but only as a temporary replacement, or have generators around etc.
 
I trust my system, completely. It has never let me down.
But I still have backup options, for just in case.
All of my family and friends, expect me to be their backup plan. lol
Sadly, I am my 5 adult children's backup plan... they are getting there though. 😉 That said that is why we bought & developed our small ranch.
 
For those that have a single large system, the main advice is to have a plan in place for when it fails.

I agree there is no correct way, just food for thought here and sharing what works for me.
You are perfectly right you can't have no redundancy at all. But you suggest ENTIRE SYSTEM redundancy. An alternative would be to have redundancies for the same good system either lying around for a quick fix or even automatically.

I've noticed a popular user in this thread (timselectric) had said in the past that he has multiple AUTOMATIC redundancies. At that point it's not just one system but a system that CAN fail (in parts of it) but just bring itself up again.
 
Technology changes over the years in ways we can't predict. When I put my system together in 1988 Lifepo4 batteries, MPPT charge controllers, PSW inverters, inverter generators, weren't on the radar, at least not on my radar. Who knows what advances are coming our way. It's a good idea to anticipate change even when we don't know what those changes will be.
 
I think I'm closer to your idea, because why have ENTIRE system redundancy, when you can have redundancy of components only.
Eg sure have a 2nd inverter around but only as a temporary replacement, or have generators around etc.
That’s the way everyone around here thinks until their system fails them at the worst possible time.

A generator is OK, but you need to put a bit of extra thought into it if you want to rely on it for non-stop power generation over a few days.
 
I have two (will be three) systems, that work together as one. If any have a problem, the others can pick up the slack. Lots of redundancy and plenty of backup options. I never want to be without power. Or under pressure to fix anything.
 
I have two (will be three) systems, that work together as one. If any have a problem, the others can pick up the slack. Lots of redundancy and plenty of backup options. I never want to be without power. Or under pressure to fix anything.
With what method do you achieve parallelism? Is it the same model of inverter multiple times, designed to do that?
 
I've noticed a popular user in this thread (timselectric) had said in the past that he has multiple AUTOMATIC redundancies. At that point it's not just one system but a system that CAN fail (in parts of it) but just bring itself up again.

"Automatic redundancy is None"

Unless you get status reports, see as the dominoes fall so you can set up more.

For instance, error correction on your HDD or Flash. If it does its work silently, one day you will have a rude awakening.
 
"Automatic redundancy is None"

Unless you get status reports, see as the dominoes fall so you can set up more.

For instance, error correction on your HDD or Flash. If it does its work silently, one day you will have a rude awakening.
I didn't say you stay uninformed. The power stays up, and you're informed of the problem.
 
That’s the way everyone around here thinks until their system fails them at the worst possible time.

A generator is OK, but you need to put a bit of extra thought into it if you want to rely on it for non-stop power generation over a few days.
Thats one of the reasons I stayed with series 12v batteries and multiple CCs. Spare 12 and 24v inverters on hand and the system is easily reconfigured in the event of a single cell loss.
I would assume with a DIY cell pack the same could be a achieved.
I like the idea of milking more time from a weak bank though.
 
Build a basement. Temperature issues solved.

It boggles my mind people have houses without basements. Unless you live in a swamp, you should have a basement. The temp stays 50-60F all year round. Science.
And I can't figure out a reason to have one. Having had them and not, big fan of slab on grade and multiple small buildings. To each their own.
 

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