[SOLVED]Looking for a Netherlands based electrician that can go slow

[brandnewb]

My current breaker panel is in disarray.

Cheap chinese horizontal wind turbine, an in depth exploration.

It's not an Alternater yet because there is no Diode pack attached to it. It is a Motor/generator. The spinning thing has magnets on it which makes up the thing called an Armature. The coil thing is called a Stator. The moving magnets cause current and voltage to flow in the coils. The faster...

diysolarforum.com

It is the result of hastily adding new components over time during house construction without reevaluating the layout before each new addition.
So basically prototyping but then without starting from scratch every once in a while.

I have opted to not yet let a professional clean it up because I first need to understand what is going on there so I can make sure that the cleaned up version will also do what I need it do. Yes believe it or not the current version does actually do what I wanted from it when it was being created.

Also, and please do not see this in a wrong way but I would rather learn from an expert now while I can and learn to be able to do it my self
This corona pandemic lock down waked me up regarding the need for self reliance. I am not trying to be stingy and deprive anyone from a well deserved pay check for good and honest work rendered. It's just that history has proven us that sometimes there is no help to be found and you are on your own.

Is there anyone, close by would be better, willing to help out on a commercial basis and get things in order there. It will be planning, theory, reverse engineering, documenting and also of course actual building a cleaned up version of the breaker panel.

Please PM me and we can talk your hourly price.

 

[curiouscarbon]

Good luck! I can feel the wholesomeness of wanting to go off grid.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Good luck! I can feel the wholesomeness of wanting to go off grid.

It's pretty awesome to be off-grid. OP has some pretty big requirements through - hope he gets there.

 

[Supervstech]

Are there any trade schools in your area? I cannot imagine a professional electrician training you short of being employed by them… I would charge thousands to slowly train a customer on a job site. I took on a new employee this summer, and he has been WORKING with me, and it’ll take at minimum another year before he grasps the skills needed to take on a panel reworking on his own. We will actually be tearing the hodgepodge of panels off the side of his house next month. Very little of what is needed will be understood by him. I have been doing this for 30+ years, and have been to trade schools, and annual code continuing education classes. There is a lot going on in your panel.

Now, you could probably learn what is in your wiring closet, and get an understanding of what is there with some online electrical courses.

 

[Supervstech]

The first thing I would do in that closet, is get ALL the network wiring out of there.

 

[brandnewb]

The first thing I would do in that closet, is get ALL the network wiring out of there.

Thank you for your input.
Can you please motivate why the networking needs to go?

 

[Supervstech]

Thank you for your input.
Can you please motivate why the networking needs to go?

Simply to organize the area.
In my country, code forbids ANYTHING from passing in front, or beside a switchboard…

 

[brandnewb]

@Supervstech Understood then. Are you open to go the hourly remote route? In where you and I have online meetings every once in a while and I present schematics and you can help fine tune one a schematic basis.

I can imageine it will not be cheap per hour but sure you could teach a man how to fish rather than giving him one.

 

[Supervstech]

I’m not too sure how much help I would be on the European wiring, but I’m game to help where I can.
Post it up here and if I can help, I sure will.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Same here. I'm a licensed electrician in Belgium, so maybe close enough. Before you ask, sorry, I don't have time to do one-on-one consulting...

 

[brandnewb]

OK gents. I have marked this thread as solved as I actually went in that beast my self and am now confident I can clean it up (given I survive the endeavor)

It already looks much better as I have replaced most 2 part components (circuit breaker and earth leakage breaker) with a single component (earth leakage circuit breaker). I am not sure if I am using the correct English terms but here is a picture of how far I have gotten in the meantime



This is the result after stage 1. stage 2 will be cleaning up more and also using flexible wires rather than than stiff ones.
stage 4 will be finalizing.
stage 5 will be having a local expert checking it.
stage 6 will be closing it all up like it should be.

about removing the wires around the panel; I am not sure I want to do that yet.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm surprised that the way that looks (also the original picture you posted) is up to code. From my days as an electrician in Belgium, this would not pass any review.

 

[brandnewb]

I believe that as well, so no i'll intend felt. Please review again in between stage 4 and 5 ok?

 

[DJSmiley]

On these kind of things the Belgium requirements (Arei) are more strict than the Dutch ones.
Usually, the NEN1010 is used for requirements. However, this is not an offical law requirement, but due to basicly anyone referring to it (including insurance companies) these guidelines can be indirectly be read as rules.

No-one really cares if you're installing Chinese crappy breakers (which are, unfortunately, widely available since the Kema Keur requirements as back in the years are gone). However, if a fire occurs, insurance companies will try to find someone to blame. Such a cabinet is definitely something they would blame if the fire starts in/near the meter (which is in NL inside the house)

In this setup there is a lot of improvements which can be done, but it's still a work in progress so things will (and have to) change.
A few things I see which defenitely are not allowed
- Using wrong wire colors: Neutral from the left Neutral bar to the first block of breakers is brown with a small blue marking
- Too thin wire gage: By the looks, it looks this wire is 2.5mm2. But I don't see any circuit breaker before it which restricts the current to allow 2.5mm2 wire
- On eg the left 3 breakers there seems to be a mixed wire gauge on the 3rd breaker: 4mm2 between 1-2-3, and 2.5mm2 towards the busbar below. Mixing wire gauges is not allowed

Generally (although not forbidden as far as I know): I won't use green terminal strips for L2, I would prefer grey. Green is usually considered to be ground (earth).

More general:
a wire mess. I'm not fan of these type of terminals. I would prefer terminal blocks like these: Easier to wire (No need to have bends due the next block as it now is), and it does look a lot nicer: https://www.vekto.nl/verdeelset-4-rijen-15-aansluitingen-125a

Also: I prefer to use stranded wires in such a distribution panel instead of solid wires

For a outlet: I would prefer multiple outlets outside of the cabinet, not inside them. Takes space, only 1 or 2 sockets and its just another cable dangling around the cabinet.
Also, I personally don't like multiple cabinets next to eachother, but for bigger setups, I usually go for the Eaton Medusa series. Those are available in bigger ones as well and include covers to make things neat.
In more industrial setups, I prefer Hager, they have a nice line of steel cabinets with covers. Much more rugged, especially those newer plastic cabinets are not really solid (thin plastics)

For the brands: I'm not a huge fan of all those cheap budget brands like Emat, Sepp and so on. Also, I have to see a all-in-one (RCD + circuit breaker) which isn't completely toast once a full short occurs in a single (18mm) width. 99% of them are 2 modules width (36mm). Only lesser known brands do offer them in 18m (Only GE is a decent brand I'm aware of offering them in 18mm, but I doubt their lifetime in case of a serious short) I have much more faith in brands like Eaton, ABB, Schneider, Hager and so on.
Last: You're mentioning an EV. In this, it doesn't look like any of the 3-phase RCD+circuit protectors have a type B earth protection. If your EV charger doesn't have the required 6mA DC leakage protection you are required to use a type B RCD.

 

[houseofancients]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm surprised that the way that looks (also the original picture you posted) is up to code. From my days as an electrician in Belgium, this would not pass any review.

it is most definitly not

 

[brandnewb]

it is most definitly not

Aren't we stating the obvious here? I mean the whole thread is about my panel being in disarray and I wanted help. Ok sure now the thread has evolved a bit to a work in progress with me DIY. But is not that the whole point of this forum?

 

[Supervstech]

For placing a wire under a screw lug, solid wire is preferred.

Up to awg#10 I would stick with solid wire where you can.

 

[brandnewb]

Up to awg#10 I would stick with solid wire where you can.

Thank you for your input. can you please convert to metric? as in 10mm2 or 6mm2 and what have we?

 

[brandnewb]

using

AWG to mm2 | Gauge to mm conversion

American wire gauge (AWG) to mm and mm2 conversion calculator, chart and how to convert.

www.rapidtables.com

I get 5.2612mm2

So I will take your suggestion as >= 6mm2 then correct?

 

[houseofancients]

i can only tell to hire a proper electrician.
if something does happen , interpolis ( or whom your insurrer may be) will eat you and your claim for breakfast.