LTO battery fire
- Thread starter Systems Planet
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Kenny_
Solar Wizard
Yes, there are multiple things happening here at the same time. It happens.
sunshine_eggo
Victron's little biatch
Then you don't know. Oxygen is being burned. The breakdown reaction is producing its own oxygen, but as you saw in the demo video, removing access to atmospheric oxygen significantly reduces the intensity of the fire.
Only if oxygen is present
Sanwizard
Solar Wizard
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Oxygen is needed. Try starting a fire in space. Even nuke blasts are muted due to no atmosphere.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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Other reactions can release energy as well. Obviously a charged battery does, without interacting with atmosphere. If you mix acids with solvents, those react. Typically heat is released even if mixing is performed at moderate temperatures. It can get into runaway. Or, it can be triggered to release further energy later. The ones that come to mind immediately have oxygen in the molecule, but I think same occurs with oxygen free compounds.
LiFePO4 of course has oxygen, but maybe it doesn't result in additional energy release rearranging what's in the battery.
Fe we know combines with oxygen, but would give it up to Al. Since LiFePO4 battery fires can be extinguished, seems to contain elements that need external oxygen to fully react. (that would mean the battery is leaving some energy storage on the table in normal use.)
Don't know if any additional energy is released combining atoms/molecules of air; are nitrous oxides lower or higher energy state than N2 and O2? Of course, at first everything is ionized, probably leaves some in higher energy state (O3).
Nuclear reaction releases energetic neutrons, gamma, X-ray. The X-rays are so soft they don't penetrate air vary far, rather super-heat it which is what causes the blast and wind, wind carrying destructive power over the greatest distance. In space, the products fly like an arrow, and interact with whatever they hit. Including thermal shock and spallation, also doping of semiconductors.
LiFePO4 of course has oxygen, but maybe it doesn't result in additional energy release rearranging what's in the battery.
Fe we know combines with oxygen, but would give it up to Al. Since LiFePO4 battery fires can be extinguished, seems to contain elements that need external oxygen to fully react. (that would mean the battery is leaving some energy storage on the table in normal use.)
Don't know if any additional energy is released combining atoms/molecules of air; are nitrous oxides lower or higher energy state than N2 and O2? Of course, at first everything is ionized, probably leaves some in higher energy state (O3).
Nuclear reaction releases energetic neutrons, gamma, X-ray. The X-rays are so soft they don't penetrate air vary far, rather super-heat it which is what causes the blast and wind, wind carrying destructive power over the greatest distance. In space, the products fly like an arrow, and interact with whatever they hit. Including thermal shock and spallation, also doping of semiconductors.
rin67630
Solar Addict
No wonder, burnable stuff around the battery burns...
...which reduces the intensity of the secondary fire.
But you can't reduce the thermal runaway by depriving oxygen.
The only way is to massively cool the battery by submersing it in a water pool.
And it will continue to "burn" under water, but the thermal runaway will stop earlier, once the temperature cooled enough.
You may want to read:
Do Lithium battery fires require oxygen?
Moderator says. "I'm torn. Give Tesla fires the oxygen of publicity? Autopilot says closing thread to new replies. I tried." This got me thinking. I think I read somewhere that Lithium bateries do not require oxygen to burn and can happily burn underwater. Is this true?
www.speakev.com
Last edited:
Zwy
Emperor Of Solar
If you read thru the followup, it seems it was some type of DIY BMS and he was charging over 3.65V per cell.
Zwy
Emperor Of Solar
No flame until second puncture when outside oxygen could enter.
The sun does pretty well
... but that's nuclear, not burning.
AFAIAA burning requires an oxidant, but that doesn't have to be oxygen.
Sanwizard
Solar Wizard
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An interesting test would be to puncture a LiFePo4 cell in a vacuum to see what happens. Hey, lets get those astronauts on the space station do a test! That would be a cool space walk, carry a battery cell outside and stick an icepick in it.The sun does pretty well
... but that's nuclear, not burning.
AFAIAA burning requires an oxidant, but that doesn't have to be oxygen.
MisterSandals
Participation Medalist
Fun with numbers (redundant, i know!)
LiFePO4
Lithium Atomic mass: 6.9410 u
Iron (Fe) Atomic mass: 55.845 u
Phosphorous Atomic mass: 30.974 u
Oxygen Atomic mass:15.999 u (x4)
Total per molecule 160.7 u
(16 x 4) / 160.7 = .398 (40% oxygen by weight!)
---------------------
Errata:
LiFePo4
lithium iron polonium battery would likely be about (898.7 / 160.7) = 5.6x heavier than LiFePO4
Po Atomic mass:209 u
LiFePO4
Lithium Atomic mass: 6.9410 u
Iron (Fe) Atomic mass: 55.845 u
Phosphorous Atomic mass: 30.974 u
Oxygen Atomic mass:15.999 u (x4)
Total per molecule 160.7 u
(16 x 4) / 160.7 = .398 (40% oxygen by weight!)
---------------------
Errata:
LiFePo4
lithium iron polonium battery would likely be about (898.7 / 160.7) = 5.6x heavier than LiFePO4
Po Atomic mass:209 u
Are you saying the 'O' in LiFePO4 stands for oxygen.... ?
MisterSandals
Participation Medalist
Yes
O4 means 4 of them.
The oxygen is bonded to Phosphorus to make Phosphate (PO4). If I am not mistaken, the reason it is considered a stable chemistry is phosphate doesn't really burn and it won't release the oxygen when heated up (actually phosphorus will bond with oxygen when it is burned, so there ya go).
I'm not bothered to have my LFP in my basement. If it burns, it'll stink up and smoke up the place (yuck, maybe should put some kind of ventilation in place just in case) but it won't catch the house because aside from the compression box the cells are in there is nothing else flammable around it.
I'm not bothered to have my LFP in my basement. If it burns, it'll stink up and smoke up the place (yuck, maybe should put some kind of ventilation in place just in case) but it won't catch the house because aside from the compression box the cells are in there is nothing else flammable around it.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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However, the gasses it release are flammable. If ignited by a spark (like Dexter's second punch with a metal bar), could then ignite wood structure. Unless finished basement with everything is sheetrocked and that provides sufficient protection.
Is that Will's next YouTube video?
My brain hurts... if Lithium is lighter than air, why don't we mine it from the atmosphere? (genuine question!!)
In my case it is an unfinished basement so it is surrounded by concrete and block.
Well I suppose one atom would float. But typically lithium is in larger chunks in a solid state.
sorry, been away, it's 48v LiFe, re-purposed from old Enginer packs for the Prius. They are in metal containers, but certainly not UL by a long stretch.
sunshine_eggo
Victron's little biatch
Have you tested the cells? The have to be going on at least a decade old, and if they ever landed in a car, they've likely been horribly abused.
I have a collection of CALB cells from a "10kWh" Gen2 Plug-in-Prius pack... they've been hammered to shit.
There's a reason all of those outfits went out of business.
sunshine_eggo
Victron's little biatch
Most elements are not in their natural state but bound up with other elements in compounds. Hence why most things are in the ground. Ore rich in Lithium is mined and then the Lithium extracted through chemical processes.
Plus Oxygen is not air. Air is mostly Nitrogen, then Oxygen plus other elements and compounds/molecules in smaller quantities.
Quattrohead
Emperor Of Solar
And more to the point why do these batteries hurt you so much when you drop them on your foot LOL
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