Magic Smoke came out......... ##it happens
- Thread starter Zwy
- Start date
Robert Ibe
New Member
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2022
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So lets see if I am understanding this correctly. In the video it shows the scc is using 14 awg wire for the PV imput and eg4 thinks that is OK(because they are selling them in that configuration) for the rated 22 amps PV imput limit of the scc.
While I see the wire is rated at 105c I would prefer to turn the sun rays I go to the trouble and expense of collecting into stored energy instead of wasted heat.
While I see the wire is rated at 105c I would prefer to turn the sun rays I go to the trouble and expense of collecting into stored energy instead of wasted heat.
Yeow… that’s a damn good looking and orderly system…im impressed..
I’m very interested in what you find caused this…I am using ferules on everything from 6 to 2 ga if it’s not a lug connection.. ( mainly Victron and IMO ) ….the big wire is all lugged. ….no prob so far at all…
Please post what you find …I keep waiting for somthing to pop up out of the bushes I didn’t see coming ….
good luck…J.
I’m very interested in what you find caused this…I am using ferules on everything from 6 to 2 ga if it’s not a lug connection.. ( mainly Victron and IMO ) ….the big wire is all lugged. ….no prob so far at all…
Please post what you find …I keep waiting for somthing to pop up out of the bushes I didn’t see coming ….
good luck…J.
Victron specifically says not to use ferrules (except on screw down terminals). You may cause increased resistance. The terminals for both Victron equipment (besides the connections that are for lugs) and IMO are clamping style terminals that compress the wires like a ferrule would to begin with. You should not be using ferrules for those connections like @AntronX mentioned. Signature Solar in their IMO video also shows not to use ferrules.
I have read that and tried it both ways this year.… just to test stuff…and you are right …they do say that.
I’m speaking of Victron only here, I don’t know anything about EG4 or SS.
My IMO stuff is wired with 6 ga wires that carry 23 amps max at 70 volts …it works perfect..
I do not suppose to know more than Victron about their CC or anything else ,for sure .. !
I will not be using ferrules on half of the new CC’ when the get hooked up soon to see how it compares with the same piece of equipment with the same load…over time..
With the exception of preventing whiskers from shorting ,I really haven’t found a pro or con to using using ferrules or not using them…
the Victron style clamp is excellent either way…that’s why I’m testing each way….with thermal cams , lazar temp probes ,DVM ,smells, touches, sounds , visuals….
Im totally OCD about testing stuff I own….
I love to sit around and tinker, and tweak stuff and learn…
Thanks for the info… I appreciate it..J
Zwy
Emperor Of Solar
Well, EG4/manufacturer uses ferrules on those kind of terminals. So which way should it be?
I'm not certain if I should cut off the ferrules or not. Part of the reason I posted this was for discussion about using ferrules.
I did not look to see if these are clamp style (draw up the backside of the terminal) or not. I always figured set screw type- yes, use a ferrule. Clamp type- no ferrule.
When in Rome do as the Romans do?
robbob2112
Doing more research, mosty harmless
OK,
When to use ferrules and when not to use them.
Use them when -
The screw terminal just has the screw directly contacting the wire and the wire is fine stranded.
When the mfg calls for them
When not to use them -
On stranded THHN when the screw pushes on the wires directly unless the mfg calls for it
when the mfg says NO - like the victron MPPT
In any sort of spring push connection like wego unless they are called for
on any sort of solid wire.
Optional -
When the screw pushes down a plate that is cupped so that it gathers the stranded wire together - like the victron MPPT
When the screw pushes down a plate that is flat and the wires are not fine stranded (like thhn)
When the hole is a hex shape and cups the wires top and bottom
Ferrules are like everything these days - mfg in china - all of them for the most part.
Good ones are:
thin enough to deform with the crimper but NOT become crooked like a snake.
When they are crimped they are straight.
Long enough to bottom out on your socket
Bad ones are:
thin and when you crimp them they tear at any point
Not long enough to bottom out in the connection you are using them in - touching plastic is not bottoming out.
So thick they are super hard to crimp and they don't make a nice shape
Correct crimping technique -
strip the wire long enough to go all the way to the end of the ferrule and have the wire sheath inside the ferrule plastic
Push it all the way through and trim if needed.
Use the correct crimper - 4, 5 ,6 and 8 sided ones exist. For electrical stuff it will be the 4 or 6 sided typically. This depends on if the socket is a flat plate/screw or if it is the hex shapped socket.
If you need to trim after the crimp you probably didn't do something right - like it didn't fill the ferrule.
do NOT twist the wire before inserting - you want a cold weld type bond and twisting will cut strands.
it is permissable to double the wire back on itself, but discouraged.
And there are non-insulating ferrules that don't have the plastic bit. These are typically larger awg
It shouldn't deform the wire into a snake.
It shouldn't tear the metal of the ferrule
it should fill the ferrule completly before you crimp if it doesn't you will get a snake
Ferrules come in sizes like AWG and they are also in mm in metric. Just like crimpers they can be mismarked.
A good reliable source of ferrules is - you get what you pay for.
www.ferrulesdirect.com
Note - this is Navy training from 35 years ago so it might have changed.
When to use ferrules and when not to use them.
Use them when -
The screw terminal just has the screw directly contacting the wire and the wire is fine stranded.
When the mfg calls for them
When not to use them -
On stranded THHN when the screw pushes on the wires directly unless the mfg calls for it
when the mfg says NO - like the victron MPPT
In any sort of spring push connection like wego unless they are called for
on any sort of solid wire.
Optional -
When the screw pushes down a plate that is cupped so that it gathers the stranded wire together - like the victron MPPT
When the screw pushes down a plate that is flat and the wires are not fine stranded (like thhn)
When the hole is a hex shape and cups the wires top and bottom
Ferrules are like everything these days - mfg in china - all of them for the most part.
Good ones are:
thin enough to deform with the crimper but NOT become crooked like a snake.
When they are crimped they are straight.
Long enough to bottom out on your socket
Bad ones are:
thin and when you crimp them they tear at any point
Not long enough to bottom out in the connection you are using them in - touching plastic is not bottoming out.
So thick they are super hard to crimp and they don't make a nice shape
Correct crimping technique -
strip the wire long enough to go all the way to the end of the ferrule and have the wire sheath inside the ferrule plastic
Push it all the way through and trim if needed.
Use the correct crimper - 4, 5 ,6 and 8 sided ones exist. For electrical stuff it will be the 4 or 6 sided typically. This depends on if the socket is a flat plate/screw or if it is the hex shapped socket.
If you need to trim after the crimp you probably didn't do something right - like it didn't fill the ferrule.
do NOT twist the wire before inserting - you want a cold weld type bond and twisting will cut strands.
it is permissable to double the wire back on itself, but discouraged.
And there are non-insulating ferrules that don't have the plastic bit. These are typically larger awg
It shouldn't deform the wire into a snake.
It shouldn't tear the metal of the ferrule
it should fill the ferrule completly before you crimp if it doesn't you will get a snake
Ferrules come in sizes like AWG and they are also in mm in metric. Just like crimpers they can be mismarked.
A good reliable source of ferrules is - you get what you pay for.
Ferrules Direct
Insulated Ferrules, Non-Insulated Ferrules, Terminals, Wire Ducts, Crimping Tools, Cable Accessories, Terminal Blocks, Push Buttons, Heat Shrink, Compression Lugs, Automotive Products, Wire Cutters, Wire Strippers
www.ferrulesdirect.com
Note - this is Navy training from 35 years ago so it might have changed.
Last edited:
Zwy
Emperor Of Solar
14AWG with 105C insulation is rated at 39A. https://www.coonerwire.com/amp-chart/
I'd prefer 10AWG with 90C insulation myself. However this is similar to using silicone wire for battery cables on a BMS. The PV wire in the SCC was not silicone.
robbob2112
Doing more research, mosty harmless
Now - IMO
Use the ferrules inside the box and get a replacement connection for that burned out one. Replace the melted/burned wires.
Don't run the wire all the way to the board - tempting - but unless your solar wire is 105c it could cause issues.
All the way to the board as a temporary thing is fine.
Use the ferrules inside the box and get a replacement connection for that burned out one. Replace the melted/burned wires.
Don't run the wire all the way to the board - tempting - but unless your solar wire is 105c it could cause issues.
All the way to the board as a temporary thing is fine.
Zwy
Emperor Of Solar
I'm not disagreeing. I put all this together over a year and half ago, everybody was using ferrules. EG4 has ferrules on the opposite side. Chinese manufacturer has it wrong?
I'll have to check that out, thanks.
Zwy
Emperor Of Solar
You are contradicting yourself, ferrules inside the box but not outside- same terminal on both sides. My opinion at this point is the factory side was loose, I checked the other SCC and those were not completely tight.
There is also the possibility the plastic cracked and caused an eventual failure.
Did that, works fine.
Positive wire runs to circuit breaker, not much length there.
I'm waiting to talk to SS on Monday, I don't have time to sit on hold for an hour this time of year.
robbob2112
Doing more research, mosty harmless
Actually I am not - it depends on the type wire used inside verse outside and the look of the socket.
I am assuming (yes I know, a bad idea) that the inside the box wires are super fine stranded. But more important it is what the MFG did.
Outside - I dunno how fine stranded your wires are - the only thing I could see for sure was the THHN at the IMO
Zwy
Emperor Of Solar
Checked the video, it isn't covered in the video, it just shows the lady not using a ferrule.
That’s exactly what I have found with the several brands I bought…OK,
When to use ferrules and when not to use them.
Use them when -
The screw terminal just has the screw directly contacting the wire and the wire is fine stranded.
When the mfg calls for them
When not to use them -
On stranded THHN when the screw pushes on the wires directly unless the mfg calls for it
when the mfg says NO - like the victron MPPT
In any sort of spring push connection like wego unless they are called for
on any sort of solid wire.
Optional -
When the screw pushes down a plate that is cupped so that it gathers the stranded wire together - like the victron MPPT
When the screw pushes down a plate that is flat and the wires are not fine stranded (like thhn)
When the hole is a hex shape and cups the wires top and bottom
Ferrules are like everything these days - mfg in china - all of them for the most part.
Good ones are:
thin enough to deform with the crimper but NOT become crooked like a snake.
When they are crimped they are straight.
Long enough to bottom out on your socket
Bad ones are:
thin and when you crimp them they tear at any point
Not long enough to bottom out in the connection you are using them in - touching plastic is not bottoming out.
So thick they are super hard to crimp and they don't make a nice shape
Correct crimping technique -
strip the wire long enough to go all the way to the end of the ferrule and have the wire sheath inside the ferrule plastic
Push it all the way through and trim if needed.
Use the correct crimper - 4, 5 ,6 and 8 sided ones exist. For electrical stuff it will be the 4 or 6 sided typically. This depends on if the socket is a flat plate/screw or if it is the hex shapped socket.
If you need to trim after the crimp you probably didn't do something right - like it didn't fill the ferrule.
do NOT twist the wire before inserting - you want a cold weld type bond and twisting will cut strands.
it is permissable to double the wire back on itself, but discouraged.
And there are non-insulating ferrules that don't have the plastic bit. These are typically larger awg
It shouldn't deform the wire into a snake.
It shouldn't tear the metal of the ferrule
it should fill the ferrule completly before you crimp if it doesn't you will get a snake
Ferrules come in sizes like AWG and they are also in mm in metric. Just like crimpers they can be mismarked.
A good reliable source of ferrules is - you get what you pay for.
Ferrules Direct
Insulated Ferrules, Non-Insulated Ferrules, Terminals, Wire Ducts, Crimping Tools, Cable Accessories, Terminal Blocks, Push Buttons, Heat Shrink, Compression Lugs, Automotive Products, Wire Cutters, Wire Strippers
Note - this is Navy training from 35 years ago so it might have changed.
Cheap ones suck ….good ones Do a good job…
robbob2112
Doing more research, mosty harmless
Glad that was an easy fix. A bit unsettling. It’s always amazing how terminals tend to loosen with time. It’s primarily after the initial tightening and much less thereafter. Chinese DIN breakers are the worst offenders, but even these eventually stay snug. This does make me wonder about the factory side of my other equipment so this is eye opening and glad you posted this. This might be another time for me to mention that a combination photo/ionic smoke detector might be a good idea to install over the system and incorporated into the home’s smoke alarm network. It’s very easy to tie in.
Using a dual mode detector sets off absolutely the earliest possible alarm because of the different types of burning or smoldering affects different sensors. I installed a heat detector also but in truth I think the multi sensor smoke detector is all that’s needed based on excellent sensitivity. It has gone off several times but it was my own fault because different types of heat related particle producing activities that I was doing in the vicinity. I guarantee that cooked wire would have set off one of those sensors. Both are of these are actually First Alert
Using a dual mode detector sets off absolutely the earliest possible alarm because of the different types of burning or smoldering affects different sensors. I installed a heat detector also but in truth I think the multi sensor smoke detector is all that’s needed based on excellent sensitivity. It has gone off several times but it was my own fault because different types of heat related particle producing activities that I was doing in the vicinity. I guarantee that cooked wire would have set off one of those sensors. Both are of these are actually First Alert
I like that heat detector…I don’t have that unit …im Gona get one..
.I do have several smoke units, I have a propane gas detector ( RV ya know) but the most important one to me is this unit…( pic)
It’s not cheap …about 200 bucks ….for the best unit….
but if one studies up a little bit on what CO does , how it works and why it can kill or permanently harm you , even if EMS get to you and puts you on oxigen …, it will blow your mind…
Never trust a 30- 50 dollar unit from a big box store ..it’s better than nothing , but that's not good enough …to me anyway..
The kind most people buy doesn’t even get triggered Untill it’s well past the danger point for many older people , sickly people , COPD people, babies and most all DOGS ..
mine is mounted next to my bed…near my head …
This unit responds at 1/10 as much CO…( 5 ppm) ….Not 30 - 50 - 70 ppm like the normal unit.
and it does it quicker ..…
Many ways to get exposed to CO in your home that will not create a trigger for a smoke or heat detector…this “can react “ to smoke as it contains CO being generated by the combustion.
Mine can be triggered by the car idling next to the camper if the window is open and the wind is right..
Has anyone ever heard of people running a gen- set outside their house when the power goes out and somehow the fumes got em while asleep…. Happens a lot every year ..
I will leave it there….
J.
Carbon monoxide is accumulative and takes an amazing amount of time to leave the body, so if you’re working on or around engines every day……..
Normally you have one carbon monoxide detector centrally located, but all my detectors were old and just replaced all them in the living space the monoxide/smoke detectors. Figured one is bound to work if it’s there. Combustible vapor detectors do have a limited life expectancy once you put it in service. Follow the manufacturer instructions for testing and replacement intervals. I had four of them in the boat I owned. Combustable vapors are heavier than air and settle to the lowest spaces so you place them as low as possible without them being in danger of contracting normal water levels.
Normally you have one carbon monoxide detector centrally located, but all my detectors were old and just replaced all them in the living space the monoxide/smoke detectors. Figured one is bound to work if it’s there. Combustible vapor detectors do have a limited life expectancy once you put it in service. Follow the manufacturer instructions for testing and replacement intervals. I had four of them in the boat I owned. Combustable vapors are heavier than air and settle to the lowest spaces so you place them as low as possible without them being in danger of contracting normal water levels.
robbob2112
Doing more research, mosty harmless
I am running 2 of these, 1 per floor, and 4 of the second one in the rest of the rooms.
Yes…yes…yess…yess. It has a half life of 4-7 hours leaving the body in normal air ..with enough in ya over the correct timeline and % you will be dead unless you get to medical help. Even if you feel sorta ok…
It has a half life of 40-70 mins when under pure oxigen …think about that .. so even with oxigen you may lay there 30 - 45 ..min or more basically with no oxigen getting to the heart or brain..
The result is your most likely Gona be toast
Many that do live are simpletons the rest of their life because they damaged their brain and other organs…like some drowning victims suffer that somehow survive…
You can get so much in you that even if in the ER room they may not can save you as the hemoglobin cannot absorb any oxygen…( now the got ways to do things I can’t speak to ,but it could be a very aggressive all or nothing attempt to save you
It is cumulative to the point you get brain fog and confused and cannot exercise good judgement , as to what to do…or even how to save yourself…or you may just faint…
It can be strong enough to totally kill in about 5 mins…under the right conditions …
There is so much and it’s so simple to learn about this stuff , and yet America is more fixated on how to operate a new phone app , not things that can easily save you…
I’m guessing now….. but I would say less than 10% of the public could even have an simi intelligent discussion about the topic. Maybe 5% …
most people don’t even know enough to know they don’t know anything about it other than it’s bad for ya …
And there’s a lot I don’t know after researching it for years…
Madco
Solar Enthusiast
On the 14AWG wire rated at 105C:
The wire may be rated at 105C but I can guarantee you the terminals are not. The terminals will overheat and fail if not eventually catch fire. A lot of people on the forum miss that ultimately, the termination temperature rating determines the legal ampacity of the conductor.
And the good news is that the rating is seldom specified, so you default to 60C (safest) or 75C if a condition or two are met, but I doubt if any tier 3 equipment would satisfy the conditions. As a result, conductor sizes become larger.
The wire may be rated at 105C but I can guarantee you the terminals are not. The terminals will overheat and fail if not eventually catch fire. A lot of people on the forum miss that ultimately, the termination temperature rating determines the legal ampacity of the conductor.
And the good news is that the rating is seldom specified, so you default to 60C (safest) or 75C if a condition or two are met, but I doubt if any tier 3 equipment would satisfy the conditions. As a result, conductor sizes become larger.
Zwy
Emperor Of Solar
THWN is rated with 105°C insulation.
Actually all the way might be best.
robbob2112
Doing more research, mosty harmless
So, don't leave us hanging. What did the vendor say?
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