main 100a breaker fail

[kyleStriker33]

Have been using this old 125a panel with 2 AC units, 11kw of ac coupled solar and 2 tesla home chargers (set for peak 48a draw between the two and only charge at night). It is obviously an original panel and was installed in late 80s but the config mentioned above was mostly in place 5 years ago except for the 2nd EV charger and that was likely the straw that broke this old panel's back (but even that lasted 10 months). My mistake was not replacing the panel at the time we added the solar. Technically it wasn't needed per code but that would likely have avoided this issue. Noticed an odd smell in the garage (panel is external but shares a wall with garage) and thought it was a water leak (smelled like wet drywall to me). Days later some lights were flickering and immediately checked panel. woops...



Started the process for sdge to approve a panel upgrade (emergency fast track not allowed with an upgrade). My electrician took out the failed breaker and sanded the mutilated bus bars and replaced with a new 100a main breaker. We stopped using big loads like, ev and electric oven but it wasn't enough and that new breaker failed again in 1 week.


So my electrician had to bypass those bus bars at that spot, combine some loads and we have been good for 8 weeks now.

By the way it's been 11 weeks and no approval yet from sdge. I did see a contract electrician for them roll up to open my panel and the underground feeder box about 3 weeks ago.

 

[EPicTony]

You should replace the panel. Ticking time bomb. Not worth the risk. I'm surprised he even did a bandaid repair for you. I would have said it's gotta go.

 

[chrisski]

What size panel will you upgrade to. In my area, my 17 kW solar needed an other than 200 amp panel.

 

[kyleStriker33]

You should replace the panel. Ticking time bomb. Not worth the risk. I'm surprised he even did a bandaid repair for you. I would have said it's gotta go.

thats the plan...11 weeks and counting

 

[kyleStriker33]

What size panel will you upgrade to. In my area, my 17 kW solar needed an other than 200 amp panel.

200a

 

[Q-Dog]

Are you allowed to replace the panel in an emergency? Could you put in a larger panel, but with the same size main breaker as your existing panel?

 

[kyleStriker33]

Are you allowed to replace the panel in an emergency? Could you put in a larger panel, but with the same size main breaker as your existing panel?

We tried that. The anwer is no from sdge.

Edit: to clarify, sdge explained that the emergency option is ONLY for same size repairs. They refused to approve anything more than a 125A load center replacement. A 200A panel with a 100a breaker was declined despite asking different ways and of different people. Really silly but rules are rules... From a cost standpoint, I'm on the hook for many thousands to do this upgrade and the cost of the load center is like 5% of that. So there is a scenario where I pay for an emergency same-size replacement and then pay again for an upgrade and my cost is about 190%. I was not going to do that.

 

[Hedges]

Use that splice to feed a 125A sub-panel and move all loads to it?

Later when main panel gets replaced, you have a sub-panel for backed up loads behind battery hybrid inverter.

I replaced 100A main panel with 200A main + 125A sub-panel (having 100A breaker because I used 2 awg wire).
I was able to do it in stages so everything remained on awaiting inspection, cut & swing, etc.

 

[kyleStriker33]

Use that splice to feed a 125A sub-panel and move all loads to it?

Later when main panel gets replaced, you have a sub-panel for backed up loads behind battery hybrid inverter.

I replaced 100A main panel with 200A main + 125A sub-panel (having 100A breaker because I used 2 awg wire).
I was able to do it in stages so everything remained on awaiting inspection, cut & swing, etc.

the splice is not approved. You can imagine how an electrician might go about doing that...

 

[Zwy]

I'm a little confused by the photos. Was this a point of backfeed from the solar?

I am also surprised the replacement breaker lasted a week. What is on the breaker?

What is the 100A breaker for?

 

[Hedges]

New 100A breaker appears to be used as new main, 2 slots over from old main with bad busbar contact under it.
Note the new fat wires wrapped around to feed it.

My inspiration to suggesting a new sub-panel is in order. (I like Square-D QO, by the way.)

For the new main panel, consider instead a Siemens 200A Meter-Main. Then Polaris fan out to two sub-panels. Instead of a new CSED.
Some advantages, including no 120% rule for PV backfeed, and you can have battery backup feed anything if desired.

 

[Zwy]

New 100A breaker appears to be used as new main, 2 slots over from old main with bad busbar contact under it.
Note the new fat wires wrapped around to feed it.

I assume this is grid tie. How did it get by the 120% rule the first time?

My inspiration to suggesting a new sub-panel is in order. (I like Square-D QO, by the way.)

I do too but have found sometimes one can't get the right size box with the needed rating on the busbar.

For the new main panel, consider instead a Siemens 200A Meter-Main. Then Polaris fan out to two sub-panels. Instead of a new CSED.
Some advantages, including no 120% rule for PV backfeed, and you can have battery backup feed anything if desired.

I agree, that is how this should have been done the first time.

 

[Hedges]

Good point - 11kW of solar?

Don't know if his main breaker was 125A or 100A.

125A panel and 125A main breaker would allow 25A PV breaker for 4.8kW, or with 100A main would allow 50A breaker for 9.6kW (fine with 11kW of PV panels on 9.6kW of inverter).

Exceeding 120% rule would not overload busbars unless excess amps of load downstream of main + PV breakers.
This is a center-fed panel, previously 120% rule not allowed. Does a 125A center-fed panel have 125A busbars? or 62.5A busbars?

 

[Quattrohead]

I would have said fuck them and do the panel replacement, what the fuck are they going to do to you ultimately.

 

[robbob2112]

Here the electrician can do whatever work is required to fix an issue and make things safe- up to him to follow code and do it safely.... and the PoCo wouldn't like it but an upgraded panel with the same size main breaker would be invisible to them.....

Then after you are safely fixed he would file an emergency permit after the fact to explain the situation and what was done. AHJ would inspect - AHJ is where the permits are issued verse PoCo - Poco can accept or pull the meter, but no approval of a swap done in accordance with the AHJ and NEC.

Note upgrading the panel would likely trigger an unpermitted install clause and you would have to pay a penalty....

Basically what you have is emergency demand maintenance and upgrade

Glad I live here.

 

[chrisski]

I would have said fuck them and do the panel replacement, what the fuck are they going to do to you ultimately.

I would be interested to see what would happen if the OP just had the work done on his own.

In my AHJ, the town gives a permit, POCO reviews paperwork and pics prior to giving go ahead, the POCO contracts someone the day of install to do on site inspection and turn power off, the panel is swapped by the electrician doing the install, and then the POCO’s contractor inspects and turns power on.

AFIK, the wires going into the box are hot the entire time. Not sure if the POCO has an additional breaker or switch somewhere to shut off one house.

Have no idea what would happen if notifying the POCO and town step is skipped. If proper sized wires were already in the box for bigger service, might not be noticed until the home sale and inspection.

 

[robbob2112]

For an emergency repair here the electrician would pull the meter and file that he cut the tag with the poco - they would inspect and make sure no tampering then retag it.

 

[lamberStye12]

Recommend pulling the meter and doing 125 sub panel.

 

[time2roll]

Yes have seen this. Replaced nine panels in a rental place I have near the coast. Breakers were failing everywhere due to corrosion.
Tried some clean up and moving breakers but replacement was inevitable. Sooner the better.

 

[kyleStriker33]

I'm a little confused by the photos. Was this a point of backfeed from the solar?

I am also surprised the replacement breaker lasted a week. What is on the breaker?

What is the 100A breaker for?

View attachment 263136

100a was the main. this is how it was installed when the house was built in late 80s. Further down is 60A which goes to a subpanel for the ac coupled solar. Like I said, I should have just replace the main load center at that time even though it was up to code and passed inspection.

 

[kyleStriker33]

For an emergency repair here the electrician would pull the meter and file that he cut the tag with the poco - they would inspect and make sure no tampering then retag it.

Seems reasonable. Not sure sdge allows reinstall of meter once pulled other than from poco.

 

[zanydroid]

Why is a panel/service upgrade needed? The home was doing fine with 125A panel/service.

I’m backfeeding 20kW to PG&E through my 100A panel/service (it never goes above 6kW in practice)

 

[AntronX]

Why is a panel/service upgrade needed? The home was doing fine with 125A panel/service.

Exactly. Replace with another 100A panel with bolt attached main 100A breaker.

 

[Hedges]

150A panel, but use 100A breaker.
Then 60A PV breaker does not violate 120% rule, up to 80A allowed.

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Acquire the QO 150 amp 8-Space 16-Circuit Outdoor Main Breaker Load Center 86817, copper buss bar this load center can safety be mounted outdoors as it features a rainproof cover and a NEMA type-3R rated

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[zanydroid]

150A panel, but use 100A breaker.

Pretty sure it was addressed above that SDGE hates that for emergency replacement

I vaguely recall seeing stuff 1-2 years back for similar fro PG&E — panels that can accept breakers bigger than the service