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Microinverter line diagram help

doc3g

New Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2024
Messages
72
Location
Texas
I am working with a CAD guy on Fiver to help with my project submission packet and I have a question about a typical microinverter install. I am wanting to install Hoymiles HM-1500NT micro inverters (https://www.hoymiles.com/product/microinverter/hm-1200nt-1500nt/). My understanding from the install documents is that I simply need a branch circuit to my load center from the microinverters. However, the design team is showing a sub panel and AC disconnect. Are these needed?

microinverter install components.png

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Are you going to have a critical load panel and batteries?

No, at least not with this initial setup, which is meant to be as simple as possible in order to pass inspection and clear me to grid tie w/ the POCO.
 
Hoymiles doesn’t need a separate subpanel but it can help to have one for numerous reasons. I wouldn’t call it a must have but you may eventually will converge into one.

On Enphase there is always an Enphase branded combiner, so if you want to look as standard and orthodox as possible in plan review, that is one of the reasons to have one.

The disconnect question is for your POCO/AHJ. Some want lockable visible disconnects. Some want the disconnect to be independent of house AC power from grid. My AHJ/POCO just let me bash all of them together.
 
Hoymiles doesn’t need a separate subpanel but it can help to have one for numerous reasons. I wouldn’t call it a must have but you may eventually will converge into one.

On Enphase there is always an Enphase branded combiner, so if you want to look as standard and orthodox as possible in plan review, that is one of the reasons to have one.

The disconnect question is for your POCO/AHJ. Some want lockable visible disconnects. Some want the disconnect to be independent of house AC power from grid. My AHJ/POCO just let me bash all of them together.

So, I was looking at the interconnect agreement and it seems that they do want a VLLD. However, the diagram they have doesn't make since because I don't understand what the service disconnect is. Is that the green box in front of the house? If yes, does that mean they want the VLLD to run to the green box in front of the house instead of inside to the service panel? I can't tell if the arrows from the VLLD are going to the panel, to the service disconnect, or both?

Screenshot_599.png
 
My house was built in 1992 and doesn't have a Service Disconnect.
Because installing my system didn't touch that area I wasn't required to upgrade to include one.
Then your main panel would be a sub-panel.
 
So, I was looking at the interconnect agreement and it seems that they do want a VLLD. However, the diagram they have doesn't make since because I don't understand what the service disconnect is. Is that the green box in front of the house? If yes, does that mean they want the VLLD to run to the green box in front of the house instead of inside to the service panel? I can't tell if the arrows from the VLLD are going to the panel, to the service disconnect, or both?

View attachment 264501
No clue what your “green box” is. Photos plz.

Service disconnect is the first means of disconnect after the meter. The picture they have here is for a specific way of laying it out. With modern code the first disconnect needs to be accessible on the outside of the building.

Share a sequence of photos tracing all cables and conduits from meter downward to panels and maybe we can identify it.

By my reading of the specs, they want to be able to lock out all generation, and it either needs to be next to meter or a placard placed at meter.

Then from here, the VLLD placement in the diagram has the advantage that it doesn’t need to be service rated (IE directly connected to the meter), since the service disconnect does that. You can directly connect the VLLD but this will be more labor and require bonding a new service to the grounding system at the house. And requires a meter pull / reconnect. ETC ETC
 
No clue what your “green box” is. Photos plz.

Service disconnect is the first means of disconnect after the meter. The picture they have here is for a specific way of laying it out. With modern code the first disconnect needs to be accessible on the outside of the building.

Share a sequence of photos tracing all cables and conduits from meter downward to panels and maybe we can identify it.

By my reading of the specs, they want to be able to lock out all generation, and it either needs to be next to meter or a placard placed at meter.

Then from here, the VLLD placement in the diagram has the advantage that it doesn’t need to be service rated (IE directly connected to the meter), since the service disconnect does that. You can directly connect the VLLD but this will be more labor and require bonding a new service to the grounding system at the house. And requires a meter pull / reconnect. ETC ETC

- Green box is at the curb, every house has one. I think this is called a pedestal service entrance. Everywhere I've ever lived in Texas, the residential electric lines are buried (as opposed to having an overhead service entrance).

- House was built in 2004, but, my last house was built in 2019, and neither had any sort of shutoff between the green box and the meter. I'm just trying to figure out if this is an additional piece of gear that needs installed (which seems weird, because everything on that side of the meter belongs to the POCO).

- I'm hoping that I can put the VLLD next to the meter and call it a day. It's already going to be a PITA to feed the AC from microinverters to the VLLD and then back inside to the panel. If I have to install a poco side disconnect I might just abandon the the grid tie option and return to the dedicated panel w/ relocated circuits.


mockup green box.png

green box.png
Screenshot_601.png
outside.png
 
Texas might have adopted the external service disconnect rule very recently. I doubt you’ll be required to add one (though one person on this forum is on a very public crusade about being forced to do something like that in Florida).

For microinverters you only need to pull 240V which is slightly less cable… but if you ever switch to a hybrid then you likely need to bring 120/240 to the disconnect to avoid problems (and then break only hot legs.

I believe there are a few other Oncor customers here, you might start a dedicated thread to see what others have done.
 
I would greatly appreciate it if someone would glance at the attached project sheet to see if anything looks grossly out of place. Of note, I deleted most of the cut sheets in order to reduce the file size so that it could be attached to the post, but the original has all of the cut sheets

I'm not entirely sure why the Fiverr freelancer has the 100A load center (HOM612L100RB) between the junction box and the VLLD. I guess it allows future expandability to bring in multiple circuits in the future. I see this panel normally used as a subpanel but don't see anything about it being required for a single AC circuit backfeed.
 

Attachments

Taking a look

BTW I just realized you are using HM-1500NT. Those are the same that I use. Were you aware that these have 1 MPPT per 2 inputs, and not 1:1? IE each MPPT has 2P inputs into it. That is IMO fine (because the 2P is already pretty shade resistant) but if you have weird shading pattern there are some situations where that might suck more. An example of that is where you have 1 panel always with all 3 sections in full sun, in parallel with a panel that always has 2 sections in full sun and 1 section not in full sun. In that case the second panel may never activate. But this is a pretty contrived example.
 
Subpanel - it can minimize rewiring in the future if you expand, also subpanels can be a cheap way to adapt different wire sizes and ampacity. For instance, you could provision that disconnect to its full rating (let's call it 100A) (can be cost-efficient if you use Al SER or individual conductors) on feeder breaker, feeder wire, into a subpanel. And then have 30A branch circuits in the subpanel. It also reserves space on the wall for feeding in more circuits.

There's a bunch of typos on page 4
  • you're not using enphase, so you don't have a Q cable. It's a 10/2 with ground TC-ER (tray cable, exposed run) for Hoymiles. They got this right in one part of the diagram
  • 3/4" Romex Run - not a thing. Also #8 THWN - is this a local code compliance thing? If it is, everything has to be in conduit since 10/2 Romex with ground has #10 EGC.
    • I think most places, it means Conduit. But they didn't specify the type.
    • Ah, the #8 might be because you have 20A circuit but #10 AWG wire, and there's a rule that requires you to upsize EGC in cases vaguely like this
  • Load center has 20A backfeed branch breaker, PV breaker is 20A. This is probably easier for reviewers to understand, but it's forcing you to have #8 EGC (if I remember that clause correctly)
Do you want the roof runs to be in Romex, or in conduit? If in Romex you need to address the EGC sizing issue. If you want it in conduit (allows switching to DC more readily, looks better? I used conduit for my microinverters. The conduit also can let you scale to more than 4 HM 1500 microinverters if you want to add more) then it doesn't matter since #8 EGC vs #10 EGC is marginal difference. Note that putting more than 1 #30 circuit in a conduit in a hot Texas attic may require enough CCC + temp derating that you have to go down to 3 HM-1500 per branch circuit.

Single cable -> 4 HM1500
Conduit: 3, 6, or 9 (3 per circuit)
Or increase to #8 circuit (but this will not fit 3 circuits in 3/4 conduit, you can fit 2 circuits which is 8 HM-1500)

Random points about the design
  • Looks like this rail-less is more roof penetrations than a rail system.
  • Looks like you could easily put WAY more panels on this roof plane. When I installed with EZ solar on 4 roof planes, I found that the most efficient install were when I slapped down bunch of panels for a single junction box. That said, putting them in two columns is efficient since you only have to find 4 rafters.
  • How much is it to go up to a 100A VLLD, in case you expand the system later? (This could raise some questions during review since it's oversized, but you could probably make up some excuses like preferring the physical design or wanting the headroom).
 
Subpanel - it can minimize rewiring in the future if you expand, also subpanels can be a cheap way to adapt different wire sizes and ampacity. For instance, you could provision that disconnect to its full rating (let's call it 100A) (can be cost-efficient if you use Al SER or individual conductors) on feeder breaker, feeder wire, into a subpanel. And then have 30A branch circuits in the subpanel. It also reserves space on the wall for feeding in more circuits.

There's a bunch of typos on page 4
  • you're not using enphase, so you don't have a Q cable. It's a 10/2 with ground TC-ER (tray cable, exposed run) for Hoymiles. They got this right in one part of the diagram
  • 3/4" Romex Run - not a thing. Also #8 THWN - is this a local code compliance thing? If it is, everything has to be in conduit since 10/2 Romex with ground has #10 EGC.
    • I think most places, it means Conduit. But they didn't specify the type.
    • Ah, the #8 might be because you have 20A circuit but #10 AWG wire, and there's a rule that requires you to upsize EGC in cases vaguely like this
  • Load center has 20A backfeed branch breaker, PV breaker is 20A. This is probably easier for reviewers to understand, but it's forcing you to have #8 EGC (if I remember that clause correctly)
Do you want the roof runs to be in Romex, or in conduit? If in Romex you need to address the EGC sizing issue. If you want it in conduit (allows switching to DC more readily, looks better? I used conduit for my microinverters. The conduit also can let you scale to more than 4 HM 1500 microinverters if you want to add more) then it doesn't matter since #8 EGC vs #10 EGC is marginal difference. Note that putting more than 1 #30 circuit in a conduit in a hot Texas attic may require enough CCC + temp derating that you have to go down to 3 HM-1500 per branch circuit.

Single cable -> 4 HM1500
Conduit: 3, 6, or 9 (3 per circuit)
Or increase to #8 circuit (but this will not fit 3 circuits in 3/4 conduit, you can fit 2 circuits which is 8 HM-1500)

Random points about the design
  • Looks like this rail-less is more roof penetrations than a rail system.
  • Looks like you could easily put WAY more panels on this roof plane. When I installed with EZ solar on 4 roof planes, I found that the most efficient install were when I slapped down bunch of panels for a single junction box. That said, putting them in two columns is efficient since you only have to find 4 rafters.
  • How much is it to go up to a 100A VLLD, in case you expand the system later? (This could raise some questions during review since it's oversized, but you could probably make up some excuses like preferring the physical design or wanting the headroom).

  • Overall, trying to keep the budget down, so the guy I hired on Fiverr for the permit was only $50, I figured there may be some typos since it's pretty clear he is just reusing previous designs. However, he has a good overall rating and is about $300-400 cheaper than the next cheapest option, which seems like Greenlancer.
  • I think he didn't really understand what I was saying about the Romex. One significant cost saving of going w/ microinverters is that (at least as far as I can tell) I should be able to run 10/2 Romex from the junction box on the roof through the INSIDE of my attic and down the wall until it needs to exit the building to the VLLD. That saves me about 60' of conduit.
  • I could definitely put more panels on the roof, but all I have is 10 currently, and the goal was to see if I could get a grid-tied system approved without breaking the bank. I will expand once everything is running and offers a proof of concept for a reasonable ROI.
  • There are more penetrations with the TopSpeed system, but it is about a quarter of the cost of any rail systems I've priced and offers the benefit of doing most of the work on the ground. It also seems like more leniency for not needing to hunt for rafters. I get that there is some trade-off for wind strength but any storm that we get here that would be capable of pulling out those mounts would be a tornado and it's taking my whole roof regardless. I can't swallow the idea of paying more for the mounts than for the solar equipment. I know the roof is important, but that's why I'm using a reputable company's product.
  • Upgrading the VLLD to 100A adds another couple hundred bucks to the bill, which is something I'm trying to avoid at this point. My income will increase significantly in a couple of years, at which point we plan to build our final house on a larger property. In the meantime, I'm trying to stay on a cash budget and learn enough about solar to make an informed decision about including solar in our forever home.
 
  • I could definitely put more panels on the roof, but all I have is 10 currently, and the goal was to see if I could get a grid-tied system approved without breaking the bank. I will expand once everything is running and offers a proof of concept for a reasonable ROI.
You'll want to see what the soft costs are per permit application. If you go down this path and it's a significant amount of money, then maybe get more panels and do it all at once.

  • I think he didn't really understand what I was saying about the Romex. One significant cost saving of going w/ microinverters is that (at least as far as I can tell) I should be able to run 10/2 Romex from the junction box on the roof through the INSIDE of my attic and down the wall until it needs to exit the building to the VLLD. That saves me about 60' of conduit.
Yes, this should work, the weird thing is with EGC sizing. I think you can just install it with 10/2 and it will be fine safety wise (and it's probably to code anyway).
There are more penetrations with the TopSpeed system, but it is about a quarter of the cost of any rail systems I've priced and offers the benefit of doing most of the work on the ground. It also seems like more leniency for not needing to hunt for rafters.
OK, it's an interesting system. Still not sure how the mechanical engineering works.

Do the steps adapt well for multi-port MLPE?

The 4th post here has some interesting cons about things like moving panels.

On rails if you ever have to replace to a new version of solar panels, you have more flexibility to just slap them on rails.

I dunno what happens with TopSpeed. Do you just leave the old ones in place (so you don't have to patch holes) and add more?
 
You'll want to see what the soft costs are per permit application. If you go down this path and it's a significant amount of money, then maybe get more panels and do it all at once.


Yes, this should work, the weird thing is with EGC sizing. I think you can just install it with 10/2 and it will be fine safety wise (and it's probably to code anyway).

OK, it's an interesting system. Still not sure how the mechanical engineering works.

Do the steps adapt well for multi-port MLPE?

The 4th post here has some interesting cons about things like moving panels.

On rails if you ever have to replace to a new version of solar panels, you have more flexibility to just slap them on rails.

I dunno what happens with TopSpeed. Do you just leave the old ones in place (so you don't have to patch holes) and add more?

- SnapNRack just has a universal MLPE frame attachment kit.
- The TopSpeed mount itself wouldn't have to be removed to replace a panel, you would just detach the panel from the mount and put the new panel in.
- Still trying to figure out the EGC thing, but I got a response from my AHJ about the submitted plan and they said "please provide stamped structural and electrical plans." The best I can tell is that this makes the soft costs more than the hardware costs. So yes, it would make more sense to install a bigger system, however, that is not in the budget at this point. Hence, it looks like I will be reverting to my original plan of creating a new panel and moving certain loads over to run off grid. It's a little irritating that medium-sized cities in Texas don't require stamps but my little country town of $9K does. However, probably 1/3 of the town has ties to the oil industry, so I shouldn't be surprised, lol.
 
- SnapNRack just has a universal MLPE frame attachment kit.
The trouble is that the instructions might be designed assuming 1:1, and you have to think on the fly about how you're going to cable manage the extra PV jumpers from 3 surrounding panels. With rails you cable tie them onto the rails. Maybe their tech support can suggest things.

- The TopSpeed mount itself wouldn't have to be removed to replace a panel, you would just detach the panel from the mount and put the new panel in.
Sure, I meant if you have different sized panels in the future (probably the most likely is if one gets damaged), rails are better. The other way to hedge against this is to stock extras of solar panels.

I guess if TopSpeed are way cheaper than rails then you can just stamp on another row or column of TopSpeed and still be ahead. And the probability of panel getting damaged isn't that high.

The best I can tell is that this makes the soft costs more than the hardware costs. So yes, it would make more sense to install a bigger system, however, that is not in the budget at this point. Hence, it looks like I will be reverting to my original plan of creating a new panel and moving certain loads over to run off grid.
Ouch. Welp.
 
My thoughts for cable management to the microinverter were just the SunRunner clips or similar: https://signaturesolar.com/heyclip-sunrunner-cable-clips-for-4-cables-pv-cable-clips-50-pack/

- As an update, my Fiverr guy says he can get Texas PE stamps for structural and electrical for $150 each. I also got a quote from another Fiverr freelancer engineer with good ratings for $130 each. So, maybe, just maybe, it is still feasible.

Overall the soft costs so far are looking like:
$50 for initial solar plan (Fiverr)
$300 for electrical and structural PE stamps
$100 minimum fee for city permit
$?? fee for inspection (I can't find any info about this on the city website)
$~200 for electrical inspection to get approved for interconnect agreement.

Running total: $650+
 
As an update, my AHJ approved the Fiverr PE-stamped plans. The permit fee was only $50 and, surprisingly, includes the inspection fee. I feel like getting the permit was the biggest hurdle in the process. Now, if I can avoid falling off the roof during the install, I might end up with a proof of concept that affordable grid-tied solar is still a possibility, lol.
 

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