MPP LV 5048 isn't UL listed = Illegal in Massachusetts?

[LiFer]

NationalGrid clearly states that you can't connect a PV inverter to the grid unless it is UL listed.
The MPP LV 5048 is not UL listed. It is only CE listed.

Have I misread the NationalGrid requirements?
There does not seem to be any wiggle room. The spec does not seem to care if the LV 5048 promises to not feed power back into the grid. The blocker is 'UL listed/certified'.

Is there an "enforce PV safety" box that I can buy that is UL certified that safely flows the grid power in one direction into the LV 5048?
EDIT: Actually if the box is UL certified then I probably don't care if we are feeding power back into the grid as the box will ensure it is done safely (prevent PV power from feeding the grid if the grid is down for maintenance etc..)

National Grid - Interconnection of Generators

All inverter-based solar PV projects 100 kW or less with applications submitted on or after June 1, 2018 are subject to ISO-NE Ride through Requirements.
Oddly they provide a MS Word document in the section, "Effective June 1, 2018"
which contains, "To comply with the ISO-NE Ride-through requirements, inverters in solar PV installations shall be certified per the requirements of UL 1741 SA as a grid support utility interactive inverter, and have the voltage and frequency trip settings and ride-through capability described in the ISO-NE Inverter Sources Requirements Document."

* Some more references:

https://www9.nationalgridus.com/non_html/ISO%20New%20England%20Source%20Requirement%20Document-2018-02-06.pdf

-> be certified per the requirements of UL1741SA as a grid support utility interactive inverter

* A very detailed document explaining DG requirements:

https://ngus.force.com/servlet/servlet.FileDownload?file=0150W00000CqbjK

The specific combination of these factors will determine if any system study requirements are needed. The following are some examples of the items that may be considered under this screen:
-> Does the Generating Facility utilize UL 1741/IEEE 1547 Certified anti-islanding functions and equipment? (LV 5048 == no)

 

[kWhShifter]

Yes. I second the question. Anyone actually legally hooked up (obtained the proper City and State approvals) a LV5048 to the grid in the USA...??

 

[Supervstech]

Since it isn’t attaching the output section of the inverter to the grid, I don’t think the rulings apply. Battery chargers, plug into the grid, they output power only to the battery... the 5048 has a grid fed charger... it isn’t “grid tied”

 

[kWhShifter]

You may be right on this... In NYC there are different rules for 1) UPS and Battery Back Up systems which do NOT feed back into the grid, and 2) HYBRID systems which flow power into AND out of the Grid. Both are technically grid-tied, but the direction of flow for the MPP unit is one way only-- out of the grid and into the batteries.

https://nysolarmap.com/media/1911/lithium-ion_energy-storage-systems-permitting-process-guide-final4_26v1.pdf

Problem is....

It's just impossible to decipher the above requirements without getting a certified electrician who knows the local codes involved.

I certainly don't want to ask the DOB and get on their radar, But the 5048 is essentially plug and play.... eazzy peezy from the vids Ive looked at.

 

[LiFer]

I understand that battery chargers don't need to be UL listed. Maybe the thought was that battery chargers get their power from the grid so if the grid goes down they can't feed power back into the grid.
But the national electric agreements explicitly state an exception for PV inverters.
They seem to be pushing for this so that no PV inverter is connected unless it can prove it won't feed power into the grid if the grid goes down - UL1741. I'm going to re-read the docs again...

 

[KBWaldron]

I Don't know about the 5048, but I have the 2424 Hybrid. There is only one connection to the grid, but it will feed in both directions. There is a configuration option that specifies whether grid feed is active.

 

[ghostwriter66]

Is ANYTHING actually LEGAL in Massachusetts??

When i moved from LAX to Southwest Texas I quickly realized how many crazy rules, regulations, codes, etc are out there ...

The State of CA Electrical Code book is thicker than a NYC Phonebook ...

The Texas (Southwest Ed.) Electrical Code Book consists of ONE (1) sheet of paper -- and all it says is "Don't do anything that may either Kill someone or burn something down" ...

Seriously my first day on the job out here i asked where our REGS and CODES manual was and my boss handed me a DVM and said - just keep the numbers where they are suppose to be and we will be fine ...

I am now officially a TEXAS Resident ...

PS - They also have no State Income Tax .. now how cool is that ...

PSS - YEP - sorry -- this post had absolutely nothing to do with what you were originally asking ...

 

[LiFer]

Some things about Texas are really great, but you may want to show your boss the following - which states Texas follows the NEC 2017 guide.
(not saying this website is correct, just that maybe it might be worth investigating a bit deeper)

NEC Adoption by State: A State-by-State Guide to Compliance - BHS Industrial Equipment

The NEC describes how to create safe electrical systems, but it's not the law everywhere. Find out which state laws require adherence to the latest NEC.

na.bhs1.com

Summary:

States using NEC 2014: Alabama, California, Delaware, Florida, Louisiana, Maryland, Montana, New Jersey, New York, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Virginia, and West Virginia.

States using NEC 2017: Alaska, Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Iowa, Kentucky, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska, N ew Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oregon, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Washington, Wisconsin, and Wyoming

 

[kWhShifter]

Yes... The GREEN LV2424 will feed both ways-- Hybrid-- The LV5048 will not feed back into the grid if the manual is correct. For my use, I don't think its the inverter that causes the permitting problem-- All that has been worked out with solar installations over the last 10 years-- Its the battery storage (EES) that presents a problem to the authorities. Especially the fire dpt.

 

[jasonhc73]

The LV5048 is grid stingy, it is a one way street with it.

What you do on your property is your business.

Think of it as a UPS controller. What you plug into a UPS is none of anyone's business.+

Whether it is a light, a TV, a radio, or your entire house. It doesn't matter.

Do not try to feed the grid with an LV5048.

 

[LiFer]

It might get you a little closer to disable 'sell to the grid', but the main road block for the MPP inverters seems to be that Massachusetts is using (at least) NEC 2017. This defines the rules the permit inspector will use. Any new solar system using MPP inverters will have their permits denied because MPP inverters do not support UL 1741 and NEC 690.12 (rapid shutdown). There are other important 690.xx sections that MPP does not support - iirc Arc Fault protection is one. I can go over 690 again and list them, but I think we have enough for this discussion.

I'm pointing out exact rules, but that doesn't mean I completely understand them yet.
I'm really tossing this out there because I'd like to learn how this all works.

Thanks!

 

[jasonhc73]

You do not need a permit when you are off grid.

NEC rules are just that, rules. That is not law.

 

[kWhShifter]

Well its not the state or city permitting that's the REAL problem.

It's the Insurance liability if an unapproved unit (whatever that means) is installed, and for ANY REASON my house burns down.

 

[Yankeroo]

Can you use the LV 2424 without hooking it up to the grid? Strictly off grid?

 

[45North]

National Grid - isn't that a British company?
Sounds like it's time for another Boston Tea Party!

 

[limey44460]

Well its not the state or city permitting that's the REAL problem.

It's the Insurance liability if an unapproved unit (whatever that means) is installed, and for ANY REASON my house burns down.

thats why we have solar sheds,do not put this stuff in your house.

 

[KBWaldron]

Can you use the LV 2424 without hooking it up to the grid? Strictly off grid?

Yes.

 

[LiFer]

Can you use the LV 2424 without hooking it up to the grid? Strictly off grid?

I'm curious if anyone has taken a detailed look at their homeowner's insurance policy and found anything related to UL listed devices, or electrical restrictions that might apply to solar inverters, batteries etc.
I'm sure these policies vary, but it might be helpful to know if there are common things to be mindful of.

 

[Yankeroo]

I'm curious if anyone has taken a detailed look at their homeowner's insurance policy and found anything related to UL listed devices, or electrical restrictions that might apply to solar inverters, batteries etc.
I'm sure these policies vary, but it might be helpful to know if there are common things to be mindful of.

I looked over mine and couldnt find anything about it. I am more asking because I dont have grid access easily accessible 24/7

 

[TDLanders]

You do not need a permit when you are off grid.

NEC rules are just that, rules. That is not law.

It sucks but the only problem is when you in an area like mine (Prince George's county, MD) and the local Dpie office uses satellite photos and other data collected to warrant a pop up visits. Once your on the naughty list it's like you cant even cut or grass with out a permit. Anything for "safety".