MPP LV 5048 isn't UL listed = Illegal in Massachusetts?

[Ampster]

I am late to this thread and may have missed something, so my apologies if I am redundant. To me it is easier to separate this into two issues.
One is whatever you do behind the meter is not the business of your power provider. That includes, switches, chargers, lightbulbs, generators, Jacuzzis, etcetera as long as they do not send power to the grid.
Two, devices that send power to the grid can be regulated by the power companies. In addition. California and Hawaii have adopted their own rules in addition to requiring UL 1747 compliance. The only exception to that first issue is when a city, county or state is the public utility, then their building codes sometimes give those public utilities some control over what you can do behind the meter.

That being said, in most cases it is wise to pull a building permit for any electrical work you do.
Bottom line, I have a grid tied system that has PG&E's approval. I also have a hybrid inverter that only needed a building permit.

 

[doctorcupcakes]

I am late to this thread and may have missed something, so my apologies if I am redundant. To me it is easier to separate this into two issues.
One is whatever you do behind the meter is not the business of your power provider. That includes, switches, chargers, lightbulbs, generators, Jacuzzis, etcetera as long as they do not send power to the grid.
Two, devices that send power to the grid can be regulated by the power companies. In addition. California and Hawaii have adopted their own rules in addition to requiring UL 1747 compliance. The only exception to that first issue is when a city, county or state is the public utility, then their building codes sometimes give those public utilities some control over what you can do behind the meter.

That being said, in most cases it is wise to pull a building permit for any electrical work you do.
Bottom line, I have a grid tied system that has PG&E's approval. I also have a hybrid inverter that only needed a building permit.

You have an MPP solar hybrid unit that got approved? If so, do they not make you provide the UL paperwork?

 

[jasonhc73]

You have an MPP solar hybrid unit that got approved? If so, do they not make you provide the UL paperwork?

The MPP LV5048 cannot send power to the grid. It is not bi-directional. It can take from the grid only, AC Input. AC Input can be ANY AC source, grid, generator, whatever you want that makes 240 split phase.

 

[doctorcupcakes]

The MPP LV5048 cannot send power to the grid. It is not bi-directional. It can take from the grid only, AC Input. AC Input can be ANY AC source, grid, generator, whatever you want that makes 240 split phase.

Yea, but I'm interested in the LV2424s (the green ones) as they're able to backfeed the grid, however seeing that they're not UL Listed I don't see how they would pass POCO approval.

 

[TDLanders]

T

The MPP LV5048 cannot send power to the grid. It is not bi-directional. It can take from the grid only, AC Input. AC Input can be ANY AC source, grid, generator, whatever you want that makes 240 split phase.

The only problem I see for anyone having any unlisted inverter is passing there local codes. If your local agents are willing to read the provided text from the manufacturer and give variance I could see it working out. I run my setup threw a transfer switch and traditional generator input receptacle. I was told he did not care about the generator.

 

[Ampster]

You have an MPP solar hybrid unit that got approved? If so, do they not make you provide the UL paperwork?

No, I have a UL certified Outback Skybox. See my signature. They did not ask, but I did provide the UL certification page with my permit application.

 

[jasonhc73]

Yea, but I'm interested in the LV2424s (the green ones) as they're able to backfeed the grid, however seeing that they're not UL Listed I don't see how they would pass POCO approval.

If you want something grid-tied. Do not ever consider 2nd tier equipment.

 

[Ampster]

If you are in California you also have to be Rule 21 compliant.

 

[RCinFLA]

Off grid in remote location, you are unlike to get caught.

Any outside PV panels (usually mounted outside) are hard to hide. I was told from a power company service person they were told to note any observed PV panels and report the location into their data base. He told me he rarely reports them but some of his work associates do. He said that he can usually tell within a minute or two if it is a legal install just from what he observes from outside the house.

Smart meters will report any power push to grid so don't ever allow that to happen if not permitted and approved. Some utilities will disconnect your grid connection if it determined you have an installed grid-connected inverter that is not permitted and approved.

Any house fire that involves fire department will generate a probable cause report that will likely be queried by insurance company if a claim is filed.

Getting UL/CE approval is an expensive and time consuming process especially for a small company. Unforturnately, lack of having UL/CE certfication is also at least a yellow flag on possible poor quality and safety.

The best you can do to get by regulations is to treat a setup like a portable generator. Mount inverter and batteries on a roller cart so it can be plugged in when needed as if it a portable generator. Normally a generator connection to house wiring requires a permit.

 

[Ampster]

Smart meters will report any power push to grid so don't ever allow that to happen if not permitted and approved.

The better hybrid inverters and some GT inverters have non export settings.

 

[anadiner]

NationalGrid clearly states that you can't connect a PV inverter to the grid unless it is UL listed.
The MPP LV 5048 is not UL listed. It is only CE listed.

Have I misread the NationalGrid requirements?
There does not seem to be any wiggle room. The spec does not seem to care if the LV 5048 promises to not feed power back into the grid. The blocker is 'UL listed/certified'.

Is there an "enforce PV safety" box that I can buy that is UL certified that safely flows the grid power in one direction into the LV 5048?
EDIT: Actually if the box is UL certified then I probably don't care if we are feeding power back into the grid as the box will ensure it is done safely (prevent PV power from feeding the grid if the grid is down for maintenance etc..)

National Grid - Interconnection of Generators

All inverter-based solar PV projects 100 kW or less with applications submitted on or after June 1, 2018 are subject to ISO-NE Ride through Requirements.
Oddly they provide a MS Word document in the section, "Effective June 1, 2018"
which contains, "To comply with the ISO-NE Ride-through requirements, inverters in solar PV installations shall be certified per the requirements of UL 1741 SA as a grid support utility interactive inverter, and have the voltage and frequency trip settings and ride-through capability described in the ISO-NE Inverter Sources Requirements Document."

* Some more references:

https://www9.nationalgridus.com/non_html/ISO%20New%20England%20Source%20Requirement%20Document-2018-02-06.pdf

-> be certified per the requirements of UL1741SA as a grid support utility interactive inverter

* A very detailed document explaining DG requirements:

https://ngus.force.com/servlet/servlet.FileDownload?file=0150W00000CqbjK

The specific combination of these factors will determine if any system study requirements are needed. The following are some examples of the items that may be considered under this screen:
-> Does the Generating Facility utilize UL 1741/IEEE 1547 Certified anti-islanding functions and equipment? (LV 5048 == no)

I've ran into this same problem. Had to return a super nice inverter cuz company said was UL listed but never would say how to prove it.

I've been on a generator in a camper in my yard for 2 months ever since my house burned down. My NC county Code office is merciless.

All I can say is this problem is popping up all across the USA. Im told theres a UL emblem/stamp a company can put on their product. So Ive been in search of solar components with it. (Even looked up a pic and thought of faking it) but my luck, Id get caught.

I did run across something at like a 2am search and dog on forgot to bookmark. Aaarggh

Good luck and this bites.

 

[anadiner]

Off grid in remote location, you are unlike to get caught.

Any outside PV panels (usually mounted outside) are hard to hide. I was told from a power company service person they were told to note any observed PV panels and report the location into their data base. He told me he rarely reports them but some of his work associates do. He said that he can usually tell within a minute or two if it is a legal install just from what he observes from outside the house.

Smart meters will report any power push to grid so don't ever allow that to happen if not permitted and approved. Some utilities will disconnect your grid connection if it determined you have an installed grid-connected inverter that is not permitted and approved.

Any house fire that involves fire department will generate a probable cause report that will likely be queried by insurance company if a claim is filed.

Getting UL/CE approval is an expensive and time consuming process especially for a small company. Unforturnately, lack of having UL/CE certfication is also at least a yellow flag on possible poor quality and safety.

The best you can do to get by regulations is to treat a setup like a portable generator. Mount inverter and batteries on a roller cart so it can be plugged in when needed as if it a portable generator. Normally a generator connection to house wiring requires a permit.

Hey little note to this: believe it or not, theres a valid reason solar is documented. Supposedly a fire dept let a house burn cuz cdnt be verify solar disconnected. Sooo that is where the new law there must be a quick disconnect near inverter and also combiner box. For me, I said hey inverter has an on/off switch and dont use a combiner box. (Tiny house so not needed)