My Anker Solix Home Power Panel and F3800s setup

[Volusiano]

Above is a picture of my Anker Solix Home Power Panel and F3800 + BP3800 setup. There are a few notable differences between my setup and most of the other setups you see in the many YouTube videos about this.

1. Mine is not in the garage or basement near the main electrical panel. This is because I live in Arizona so it would just be way too hot to put this setup in my garage. Afterall, the high operating temperature specs for all these equipment are for 40C or 104F top. Even though I've seen my F3800 operate inside my car's hatchback (EVSE charging my Chevy Volt still operating at 130C just fine, but for sure I don't want it to be long term inside my garage where the temperature can easily climb to 110F in the summer.

2. My setup is indoors (where it's nice and cool) in a little nook right by the kitchen area. I take advantage of the fact that my kitchen oven outlet of 240V on a 40A circuit breaker is unused because I have a gas stove, so I just plug an RV 240V Nema 14-50P 50A 6 AWG extension cord into this kitchen oven outlet that is connected to my main electrical panel with a 40A breaker. This way I don't need to hire an electrician to run a dedicated power line from the Anker Home Power Panel out to the main panel (that is 50 ft away) and add a new breaker. I would say that this is the key enabling factor to allow me to do my Anker HPP/F3800/BP3800 indoors at minimal cost. I don't think my home loads would ever exceed 40A during Time of Use anyway (I have gas stove, gas furnace, gas dryer, gas water heater), so tapping into this 40A 240V oven outlet should suffice for me.

3. Obviously I do not opt to use a backup load subpanel for critical load circuit backup in an outage. That setup is strictly optional. The main purpose of my setup is only for Time of Use mode money savings. I don't have an issue with power outage where I live. Maybe every other year, there might be a short (less than an hour) power outage that I can live with. If I ever need longer term backup for outages, I can always disconnect the F3800s from the Home Power Panel and run them as stand-alone backup batteries with extension cords to the fridge/freezer and other appliances.

4. Although I was able to avoid running a power line from the Home Power Panel out to the main electrical panel by utilizing the 40A 240V unused oven outlet less than 10 feet away from where my HPP is, I still needed to run the 2 Current Transformer wires that clip on my 2 main grid power lines back to where the Home Power Panel is. The supplied CT twisted pair wires are only 16 ft long. But they can be spliced and extended for longer runs if necessary (I think up to 100 ft, but I only need another 50 ft). The same CT wires (20 AWG rated at 600V) sold by a third party is $220 for 100 ft long before shipping cost. So I bought straight 18 awg wires rated for 600V on Amazon for under $30 and twisted them up myself. The challenge was how to run them from the main panel to where my HPP is indoors. Luckily my home is prepared with an empty conduit for solar wires (if I choose to install them later) in the attic out to a recessed box just a few feet from the main panel, so I was able to make use of this empty conduit to feed the CT wires to where my HPP is inside.

5. So now I can set up my Time of Use options in the HPP so that the 2 F3800s and 2 BP3800s will power my whole house (via AC coupling controlled by the HPP) during peak hours, then have the HPP recharge them during Super Off Peak hours. I have a 12000 BTU window AC in my great room, and with 2 F3800s and 2 BP3800s, I can keep this window AC running at max power for 6 hours straight during the peak time and still have about 35% charge left when Super Off Peak time resumes. We use induction stove top for cooking to keep the kitchen cooler (compared to gas cooking) and this uses the battery power as well. I have a Micro-Air EasyStart Flex soft starter on order for my 4 ton central AC. Once it's installed, I should be able to run it during the Peak hours as well to cool the whole house, instead of just running the 12K BTU window AC to cool the great room. But with only 15.4 KWH from my batteries, I can probably run the 4 ton AC for only 3.5 hours before I'm out of battery juice. Hey, but at least I have that option that I can use judiciously during peak hours.

6. A few things to note about Time of Use limitations with the Anker setup. In off-grid backup load mode, you can expect to get the full 6000W from each F3800, totaling 12 KW for 2 F3800s to power your whole house. HOWEVER, in Time of Use mode, the Anker HPP will derate the power down to 1.92 KW for 1 F3800, double it to 3.84 KW of power for 1 F300 + 1 BP3800, or for 2 F3800s. If you have 1 F3800 + 2 BP3800, or 2 F3800 + 1 BP300, then the derating allows 5.76 KW output. If you have more than this, like 1 F3800 and 3 or more BP3800s, or 2 F3800s and 2 or more BP3800s, then the derating is increased to 6 KW top. This is only half of the supposed 12 KW max you're supposed to get with 2 F3800s. The reason Anker gives to justify this derating is that it's designed like that to help prolong the battery life of the whole setup. I think it's a cap on purpose, not due to any physical limitation, because obviously in grid-down backup mode, there's no cap at all. Perhaps the rationale is that grid-down backup is infrequent enough that an all-out no-cap no-limitation is more justifiable than regular daily time-of-use scenarios, at least in terms of preservation for battery longevity.

7. This limitation does put a little damper into my setup because my 4 ton central AC does draw around 4000 W of power, so I would only have around 2000 W of power left (out of my 6000 W derated cap) for use on other things such as induction cooking, etc. On top of that, this 2000 W of power actually means 1000 W of power on each of the 120V leg. So if I have 2 loads of 1000 W of 2 different legs, it'd be OK. But if the 2 loads of 1000 W each are both on the same leg, then it wouldn't be enough.

8. Another worth observation is that with most generator setup in a grid-down situation, you'd need a soft starter on your 3 or 4 ton and up central AC for a generator to be able to run it without choking due to the initial in-rush current. But for an Anker Time of Use scenario (not a grid-down scenario), a soft starter is not necessary to be installed on the central AC compressor, because the grid is still available to supply the large in-rush current that the AC compressor demands, but right after that, the F3800s will take over and run the AC on battery power. Now if your Time of Use plan is just a higher energy cost setup during peak time, this large in-rush current is so short that it wouldn't cost you much in terms of total energy anyway. But if your Time of Use plan is a "Demand" type plan that punishes you for a more instantaneous "peak" demand draw in terms of KW draw, and the grid meter is fast enough to capture this "peak in-rush" draw (remains to be seen), then a soft starter to reduce this in-rush might be beneficial to avoid steep instantaneous demand penalties.

9. When the Peak time is over, if you use the (regular) Off Peak mode in your Time of Use planning, it will not recharge the battery. Make sure you use the Super Off Peak mode if you want it to recharge your batteries. It'll recharge at the max rate of 2.77 KW for each of the F3800 and BP3800 combination you have. In my case, it 2x 2.77 KW = 5.5 KW for 2 F3800 + 2 BP 3800s.

10. Super Off Peak recharging of the batteries is always up to 100%. There's no option to set the state of charge to something lower in this mode. But there's a manual workaround if you want to stop charging at a certain SOC. For example, if you prefer for the HPP to stop charging the batteries at 80%, then set the Battery Reserve to 80% and switch from Time of Use mode to Self Consumption mode. The batteries will be charged up by the grid to 80% and then stopped there. The Self Consumption mode has a hard stop at the Battery Reserve and will not self consume below it. At this point, the grid will supply power to the home loads because the batteries are not allowed to self consume past this Battery Reserve level. Of course this will take away the automation for Time of Use. But it's helpful if you don't want to have the batteries at 100% SOC over the weekend in order to help preserve the life of the batteries. Then before the Peak time on Monday resumes, manually switch back to Time of Use mode before then to resume Time of Use for the next 5 weekdays.

I'm personally on a Demand time-of-use plan, not just a regular Peak time-of-use plan, so my off peak energy rate is the lowest pricing with my power company (currently at 5.6 cents per kwh). However, any instantaneous peak demand draw will be penalized heavily. But with this Time of Use mode that I have, it works out very well for my use case. In the winter months, there are 2 peak periods (from 5-9 am then 5-9 pm), so the level of Time of Use automation that the HPP setup does for me is doubly convenient.

I don't use any solar or plan to use any because my Super Off Peak rate of 5.6 cents per kwh is so cheap that I can't really justify the cost of solar over this cheap rate. I'd rather use that money to buy more BP3800 expansion battery for my setup instead, when they go on sale cheap enough. But if somebody has a load-side-tap solar setup, the Anker HPP does include a current transformer to monitor this solar load and judiciously combine its use with the battery usage to enable optimal self-consumption mode to use up the power produced by the solar and then save any excess solar power into the batteries if the home loads can't use it all up. Line-side-tap solar setups cannot take advantage of this solar load monitoring and optimized usage, however.

 

[Volusiano]

Another new thing I learned about this system that I want to pass along in case it's helpful for someone else. Technically you can have up to 2 F3800s and add BP3800 expansion batteries to them. But Note #5 on page 63 of the manual in the "Safety Instruction section" says to connect an equal number of expansion batteries to each F3800 if you have 2 of them. I think it's because the Home Power Panel will not automatically equalize the depletion rate between 2 F3800 if their capacity or SOC is not the same, leading to the possibility of one shutting down before the other when it reaches 1%.

Here are some more personal observations: if you have 2 F3800 and happen to take one out for use, then put it back into the HPP & 2 F3800s setup, one F3800 might have a higher SOC than the other. The HPP doesn't seem to know this (or care about it) and would proceed to discharge both F3800s at an equal rate. There's no automatic equalization of the depletion from what I can tell. If you don't do anything about it, eventually 1 of the F3800s will reach 1% SOC and automatically shut down, then the other remaining F3800 will bear the full depletion rate at that point.

But you can manually manipulate the equalization by setting the SOC of the more depleted battery to be the Battery Reserve level. This will stop it from being depleted further, and will shift the depletion rate over to the other higher SOC F3800 100%, until it reaches the same SOC of the other battery, which is also the set Battery Reserve level at this point. If you don't do anything at this point, the HPP will start drawing from grid power to supply to the home loads, even if you're still in Peak time, simply because the set Battery Reserve means that you don't want to dip anymore into below this level, the battery is being reserved for grid down situations. So to avoid any undesired draw from the grid to supply the home loads in Peak time, when the SOC of the fuller F3800 starts getting very close to the SOC/Battery Reserve level of the emptier F3800, you should change the Battery Reserve level down to 1% to allow both F3800s to now be depleted equally at that point, and you by now will have successfully equalized the SOCs of the 2 F3800s to be almost the same, albeit manually..

Remember that if you artificially set the Battery Reserve level manually to manipulate the equalization of the depletion, or to manually avoid the recharging of the F3800s and BP3800s all the way up to 100%, if you forget to "undo" this manipulated Battery Reserve level back to 1% (or whatever level you desire it to be at for real) at the right time (immediately after equalization is done, or before Peak time starts, the battery consumption will stop at this fake Battery Reserve level and yo will be dinged for consumption from grid during peak time. Take it from me because I got dinged before like that because I forgot to reset it.

Finally, a couple of observation about the charging rate. The F3800 stand-alone gives you many options for AC charging rates, anywhere from 200W to 1800W. It also gives you options on when you want the F3800 to turn off by itself (or never). However, if it's connected to the Home Power Panel, these options go away and you're at the mercy of how the program the HPP to charge up. And my observation is that if you want the fastest charging rate right away, one way to force this is to put it in the Self Consumption mode and set the Battery Reserve level to 100%. It'll charge each F3800 at around 2.75 KW, up to 5.5 KW for 2 F3800s. If you want a slower charging rate, one way is to let it charge up the battery in the Super Off Peak mode. It seems like the HPP won't be in a hurry to charge the batteries asap. It'll charge at a slower rate, although the algorithm is not clear. It seems like it makes some calculation to extend the charging time so as to not heat up the batteries too much with the max charging rate, as if to help prolong battery life. But it also looks like it tries to see when the next Peak time is calculate the charging rate to get the batteries to 100% before the next peak time.

By the way, with the F3800(s) connected to the HPP, they will be kept ON all the times, there's no option for them to turn off automatically, which makes sense because they should be ready to go all the times in case of a grid outage. I guess they're not concerned about the standby draw of the F3800 eating up into the battery capacity when idle anyway because the grid is always there to top it off.

 

[Volusiano]

I'm relaying the following information that I received from Anker customer support on my question of whether the Home Power Panel knows how to auto-balance 2 F3800 when depleting the charge or not, if the 2 F3800s (and maybe their associated batteries) don't have the same state of charge. In the post above, my observation has been that the HPP does not know how to auto balance the 2 SOCs at all and just deplete the charge equally no matter what. The clarification from Anker is that the conclusion based on my observation is not entirely true. Their answer is that "It depends". If the HPP has to deliver more than 900W of output, then it will deplete both F3800 evenly regardless of their SOCs. But if the HPP only has to deliver 600W of output or less, then it will deplete the higher SOC F3800 first, until its SOC is the same as the other F3800's SOC, then they will both get discharged evenly by the HPP until the Battery Reserve level is met. The Battery Reserve level is always the "floor" where battery discharging stops and grid discharging takes over in either Peak ToU or Self Consumption.

Below is the text from the email I received from Anker, verbatim. I think in the next to last example when they said "A will discharge from 100% to 40%" instead of 50% like I thought they should have set, I think that might be related to what they meant by discharging simultaneously with a set of hysteresis.

Comfirmed with our engineerin team, I would like to offer you more information for the Home power panel system.

The basic principles of the HPP system discharge are as follows:
When the household load power is less than 600W, the single F3800 unit with the higher charge will discharge first.
When the household load exceeds 900W, both F3800 units will discharge simultaneously (with a set hysteresis).
Discharge will only occur if the battery level is above the user-set reserve level.
Examples:
If A-F3800 has 100% charge and B-F3800 has 50% charge, with a reserve level set at 80%:
First, charge B from 50% to 80%. B will not discharge.
Then, A will discharge from 100% to 80% and stop discharging.
If A-F3800 has 100% charge and B-F3800 has 50% charge, with a reserve level set at 30%, and the household load is less than 600W:
First, A will discharge from 100% to 40% (with a set hysteresis).
Then, A and B will discharge together evenly. A will discharge to 30% and stop, then B will continue to discharge to 30% and stop.
If A-F3800 has 100% charge and B-F3800 has 50% charge, with a reserve level set at 30%, and the household load exceeds 900W:
A and B will discharge together evenly. B will discharge to 30% and stop, then A will continue to discharge to 30% and stop.

 

[markdinh]

How's it working out for you a few months in? I'm tempted to do something very similar with a 50A 240V circuit I have into my garage off of the main panel. Did you end up switching out the main breaker in the HPP to a 40A breaker to match the breaker on the main panel? Your setup sounds great but I'd be anxious about any surges from the f3800s

 

[jkton-csc]

I'm relaying the following information that I received from Anker customer support on my question of whether the Home Power Panel knows how to auto-balance 2 F3800 when depleting the charge or not, if the 2 F3800s (and maybe their associated batteries) don't have the same state of charge. In the post above, my observation has been that the HPP does not know how to auto balance the 2 SOCs at all and just deplete the charge equally no matter what. The clarification from Anker is that the conclusion based on my observation is not entirely true. Their answer is that "It depends". If the HPP has to deliver more than 900W of output, then it will deplete both F3800 evenly regardless of their SOCs. But if the HPP only has to deliver 600W of output or less, then it will deplete the higher SOC F3800 first, until its SOC is the same as the other F3800's SOC, then they will both get discharged evenly by the HPP until the Battery Reserve level is met. The Battery Reserve level is always the "floor" where battery discharging stops and grid discharging takes over in either Peak ToU or Self Consumption.

Below is the text from the email I received from Anker, verbatim. I think in the next to last example when they said "A will discharge from 100% to 40%" instead of 50% like I thought they should have set, I think that might be related to what they meant by discharging simultaneously with a set of hysteresis.

Comfirmed with our engineerin team, I would like to offer you more information for the Home power panel system.

The basic principles of the HPP system discharge are as follows:
When the household load power is less than 600W, the single F3800 unit with the higher charge will discharge first.
When the household load exceeds 900W, both F3800 units will discharge simultaneously (with a set hysteresis).
Discharge will only occur if the battery level is above the user-set reserve level.
Examples:
If A-F3800 has 100% charge and B-F3800 has 50% charge, with a reserve level set at 80%:
First, charge B from 50% to 80%. B will not discharge.
Then, A will discharge from 100% to 80% and stop discharging.
If A-F3800 has 100% charge and B-F3800 has 50% charge, with a reserve level set at 30%, and the household load is less than 600W:
First, A will discharge from 100% to 40% (with a set hysteresis).
Then, A and B will discharge together evenly. A will discharge to 30% and stop, then B will continue to discharge to 30% and stop.
If A-F3800 has 100% charge and B-F3800 has 50% charge, with a reserve level set at 30%, and the household load exceeds 900W:
A and B will discharge together evenly. B will discharge to 30% and stop, then A will continue to discharge to 30% and stop.

I can confirm this is true and I found the algorithm to be impressive.

 

[Volusiano]

How's it working out for you a few months in? I'm tempted to do something very similar with a 50A 240V circuit I have into my garage off of the main panel. Did you end up switching out the main breaker in the HPP to a 40A breaker to match the breaker on the main panel? Your setup sounds great but I'd be anxious about any surges from the f3800s

Sorry for the delayed response. It's been working out great, actually. There's really no breaker in the HPP to the grid connection, the internal of the HPP for the grid side connection is already designed to handle up to 100A, so there's no safety concern to tap into my 40A kitchen over breaker for the intended use instead, because if anything, it'll just pop the breaker sooner rather than later. The only 2 breakers available on the HPP are the 2 side breakers for the F3800 to the HPP.

You shouldn't be anxious about any surges from the F3800s because there's not supposed to be any coming from the F3800 in the first place. The only concern about surges is whether the F3800s can handle the surge demand on large whole-house central ACs or not without a soft start, and the answer there is that the grid will chip in and supplement and handle any surges from the central ACs that the F3800s cannot handle. I've been able to run my 4-ton whole-house central AC just fine with my setup and no soft start installed. But eventually I installed a soft start anyway just for peace of mind, and also in the eventuality that I want to use the 4-ton AC in backup mode.

 

[tr_st_n_]

Thanks for all the info you’ve provided.
While your setup is primarily time-of-use, mine started out as backup-only for hurricane season. I have two F3800s, two 400W portable panels, and the Double Power Hub that connects to the auxiliary power port on my main panel. But I’m reading that these batteries are designed to be used frequently. So, I’ve been looking into the Home Power Panel. Yours is the only setup I’ve seen that doesn’t include the sub-panel for backup loads. Ideally, I’d backup my main panel. But I can understand why they need to be separate. I’m picturing moving the utility mains to a smaller panel and converting the former main to a sub with the Home Power Panel in between. Possibly with a bypass in case the HPP fails open. But those are questions for an electrician.

I’d like to at least use what I have right now. I’m new to AC coupling and everything I’ve read is within a solar context and not necessarily battery backup.

Question time:
Is your 240v plug connected to the Grid terminals on the Home Power Panel (And nothing is connected to the Backup terminals? My chats with Anker support made it sound like the Grid side was one-way input-only).

Assuming you’re only connected to Grid terminals, and that they can send power to your main panel, what does the HPP do if you lose utility power?
I’m hoping that it would also stop sending power to avoid back feeding the utility.

Do you know if the XT60 ports still accept charging in your setup?

Thanks again!

 

[Gaijin2]

Thanks indeed for all this info. It's difficult to get hard facts on what these things will actually do, and what they can't.

I'm in the middle between Volusiano and tr_st_n. I'm in hurricane territory, and the last multi-day outage has got me looking at backup and solar solutions finally. And with a monthly power bill that can top $250, I like the idea of peak shaving very much.

The Anker F3800 seems like the right place to start, and I've read the owner's manual and the manual for the Smart Home Power Panel, and still don't know what I would need, so, if I may, can I state my assumptions/understandings and ask you folks for answers on whether I've got it right, or what I've got wrong?

First, trying to decide if I need the Smart Home Power Panel (SHPP). I'm thinking that for hurricane backup, no, it's not necessary, but for peak shaving it's mandatory, right?

Second, I'm torn on the solar input situation. It's my understanding that the Smart Home Power Panel works with a grid-tied solar system, and when there's a power outage, the solar array cannot be used. Which is just not functional in a home backup scenario. And I don't currently have a solar array anyway. So my question is: what if I don't have a grid-tied solar array? What if, instead, I just had a few 400w panels on a ground mount, feeding directly into the XT60 inputs, never touching the grid in any way? Would that allow solar charging separate from the SHPP? Or would that just be dumb for some reason?

I guess I should lay out what I'm trying to get to. I'd like the daily use of the F3800 to be like Volusiano's (if I understood Volusiano's system properly) but with added solar:
1. During daily use, I'd like to see solar power used first to meet any electrical needs, and any surplus solar power be used to recharge the F3800.
2. In cases where the solar input is insufficient to meet the power demand, the F3800 should supplement it with battery power (so long as its battery charge level is above, say, 30% or so).
3. If the battery hits the low-level cutoff (assuming 30% to have a reserve for power outages), then the grid power should supplement for the rest of the power needs.
4. Ideally I'd like the F3800 to recharge itself to 80% or so using super off peak power overnight.

Note: this is what I think I want, but I'm new to this so feel free to tell me if what I would actually want would be something different.

Okay, so when a power outage occurs, we just leave the grid out of it. When there's no grid power I'd be looking for solar power to run the few minimal necessary circuits in the house, and any excess solar should go to recharge the F3800. If the power demand is too high and the battery is being quickly depleted, I could plug in a generator to recharge the F3800, although I don't think the F3800 can be AC charged without losing the AC output. Maybe by using something like an EC4 ChargeVerter, I could then use the generator into the chargeverter into the XT60s to recharge the F3800, although only at 1200w. Seems inefficient, but maybe I'd move some of the load off the F3800 and directly onto the generator to use up its output above those 1200w. In any case, once solar is no longer in the equation, I could use the generator to top up the F3800 for the next day.

(or, does the use of the SHPP overcome the situation where charging from AC means losing AC output on the F3800? Can you charge an F3800 from AC while it's hooked up to an SHPP, when grid power is off, and the F3800 still be able to power the SHPP simultaneously?)

The final and ultimate question is: can an F3800 do all this? And can it do it on its own, with a few solar panels and a generator inlet & interlock? Or is the SHPP mandatory to make it all work?

Thank you all very much in advance for any information you can share.

 

[isleboy]

I just finished installing my system and setting it up and have been playing with the settings. The system is running my whole house. I had an electrician help me run wiring straight from the main to the SHPP. On the surface, the work looks great but he did open another hole on the right side above the knockout to feed the second set of wires through there from the junction box he mounted. I wish he had consulted with me as I had flexible conduit available that he could have used to connect from a prefabricated knockout on the bottom. He was the only electrician I found who was willing to learn more about and work on the setup so I can't complain. He did have better ideas as my original idea was to unhook the current wires from the breaker in the main and pull it back into the wall, then run it through flexible conduit out the other side of the wall into the SHPP. From the SHPP I would run another set to the main panel and put in a new 100A breaker. He spliced a set of wires in the main and ran another set from the main to the SHPP. He split the ground cable between the two sets instead of running 2 sets of wires. I wouldn't have thought of doing that. After I setup everything and tested it through the peak period of today, I noticed it wasn't automatically chargin up and ran some searches and came upon this thread. I re-did my time of use plan to include partial peak and super off peak and then ran a system check to restart it and now it's charging fine. I plan to peak shave with this unit and also use it for planned rolling blackouts. I'm still thinking about the solar part. I want to roof mount some solar panels and directly input into the F3800s but haven't found any willing help on this yet. I did get a roofer to offer mounting the solar brackets for me, which is the only tough part for me. I would then just mount the solar panels and run the wiring myself. All the solar people I've talked to so far want to run the traditional solar to the main which requires approval by the electric company and probably an electrical panel upgrade which then requires new conduit to the vault on the street which then requires trenching and the costs just stack from there. I just want to charge from the ample sunlight, then use the power during charging and discharge most of it after the sun sets with the grid as a possible supplement for charging during winter months.

Answering a few questions:

Yes, it's mandatory to get the SHPP for peak shaving.
If you have solar panels directly connected to the F3800s, they would charge the F3800s only. My understanding is that charging and discharging can happen at the same time so this would be an off-grid system. You would not be restricted during power outages. In fact, you would not notice them at all.
It won't use solar power first or second. It would basically run your house off the batteries' stored power. As it is discharging to your house, it is also charging from the solar panels. If your solar panels charge faster than your discharge, you would store more power than you lose and the batteries would get fuller. Then when the sun sets, the batteries will only discharge and no longer charge.
From my understanding, charging from 120V and discharging at the same time is possible in the US. It is only in the 240V countries that you cannot charge and discharge at the same time.

 

[Gaijin2]

isleboy, sounds like your planned usage and mine are pretty much exactly the same. Glad to have all the answers you've provided, thanks!

As for the F3800 not using solar power first or second, I think we may actually be talking about the same thing although very differently. From what you're saying, it sounds like the F3800 won't let solar power pass through directly to power the house, but the net effect is that all the solar generated will get used freely, it just has to run through the battery first. Meaning: if the battery's at 100%, and the solar's generating enough power to meet the house's demands, then the F3800 will supply power from its battery and then immediately charge up from the solar, thus maintaining a 100% state of charge. And if the battery's already in a semi-discharged state, and the solar input is more than the house's electrical demand, then the net effect is that the battery will be charging more than it's discharging, even to the point of reaching 100% (after which point any excess solar capacity is just wasted). Which, while different from what I originally thought (pass-thru to avoid unnecessary charge/discharge of the battery), I imagine it's irrelevant considering the battery's supposed to last 10 years, right? With battery technology developments proceeding as they are, by the time the F3800's battery wears out I imagine we'll be able to replace it with something drastically better and cheaper, so that sounds fine.

As for the 120v charging and discharging: it's my understanding that the 240v discharge is disabled when AC charging, at least on a standalone F3800. You can charge on AC and output on the 120v outlets, but the 240v output is disabled. So the question is: does the SHPP remove that restriction? Maybe the SHPP and its direct electrical connection has the hardware necessary to overcome the limitation that a standalone F3800 has, and 240V supply and grid recharging are supported simultaneously. It certainly should work that way, it would be such a severe limitation if it doesn't, so I'm guessing it has to.

And I agree totally about the grid-tied solar system; all the restrictions and costs you detailed, as well as the further permitting hassles when one has an HOA to deal with. That's why I wanted a ground-mounted direct-connection model, at least to start. But I don't know if those XT60 charging ports are active when the F3800 is connected to an SHPP. It may be that the SHPP takes over all the brains of the operation, and the F3800 becomes a slave and that all operation takes place over the SHPP-to-F3800 connector. I mean, do the F3800's direct-connect AC outlets and 240V outlet still work while connected to the SHPP? Or does the F3800 become truly a "home backup system" when connected to the SHPP? I guess that's the crucial question regarding solar too - does the SHPP's management of solar mean only grid-tied solar panels, or does it still provide for DC charging from the F3800's ports and does it allow that input and use it in its power management plans as solar?

 

[Volusiano]

Thanks for all the info you’ve provided.
While your setup is primarily time-of-use, mine started out as backup-only for hurricane season. I have two F3800s, two 400W portable panels, and the Double Power Hub that connects to the auxiliary power port on my main panel. But I’m reading that these batteries are designed to be used frequently. So, I’ve been looking into the Home Power Panel. Yours is the only setup I’ve seen that doesn’t include the sub-panel for backup loads. Ideally, I’d backup my main panel. But I can understand why they need to be separate. I’m picturing moving the utility mains to a smaller panel and converting the former main to a sub with the Home Power Panel in between. Possibly with a bypass in case the HPP fails open. But those are questions for an electrician.

I’d like to at least use what I have right now. I’m new to AC coupling and everything I’ve read is within a solar context and not necessarily battery backup.

Question time:
Is your 240v plug connected to the Grid terminals on the Home Power Panel (And nothing is connected to the Backup terminals? My chats with Anker support made it sound like the Grid side was one-way input-only).

Assuming you’re only connected to Grid terminals, and that they can send power to your main panel, what does the HPP do if you lose utility power?
I’m hoping that it would also stop sending power to avoid back feeding the utility.

Do you know if the XT60 ports still accept charging in your setup?

Thanks again!

Yes, I only connect to the grid side of the HPP, nothing connected on the backup load side of the HPP. The Anker support person is wrong to tell you that the grid side connection is only 1 way. The F3800s do output to this grid side connection for AC coupling. It also receives power from the grid to charge up the F3800s again. So it's actually bidirectional on the grid side. It's the backup load side of the HPP that's only 1 way to the sub panel. If the grid loses power, the HPP is designed to shut off to avoid back feeding power from the F3800s to the grid.

Yes, the XT60 ports still accept charging in ANY setup, stand-alone F3800, or with the HPP, either connected to grid side only (like my case) or connected to both grid and backup load sides (like in other people's cases).

 

[Volusiano]

First, trying to decide if I need the Smart Home Power Panel (SHPP). I'm thinking that for hurricane backup, no, it's not necessary, but for peak shaving it's mandatory, right?

Second, I'm torn on the solar input situation. It's my understanding that the Smart Home Power Panel works with a grid-tied solar system, and when there's a power outage, the solar array cannot be used. Which is just not functional in a home backup scenario. And I don't currently have a solar array anyway. So my question is: what if I don't have a grid-tied solar array? What if, instead, I just had a few 400w panels on a ground mount, feeding directly into the XT60 inputs, never touching the grid in any way? Would that allow solar charging separate from the SHPP? Or would that just be dumb for some reason?

I guess I should lay out what I'm trying to get to. I'd like the daily use of the F3800 to be like Volusiano's (if I understood Volusiano's system properly) but with added solar:
1. During daily use, I'd like to see solar power used first to meet any electrical needs, and any surplus solar power be used to recharge the F3800.
2. In cases where the solar input is insufficient to meet the power demand, the F3800 should supplement it with battery power (so long as its battery charge level is above, say, 30% or so).
3. If the battery hits the low-level cutoff (assuming 30% to have a reserve for power outages), then the grid power should supplement for the rest of the power needs.
4. Ideally I'd like the F3800 to recharge itself to 80% or so using super off peak power overnight.

Note: this is what I think I want, but I'm new to this so feel free to tell me if what I would actually want would be something different.

Okay, so when a power outage occurs, we just leave the grid out of it. When there's no grid power I'd be looking for solar power to run the few minimal necessary circuits in the house, and any excess solar should go to recharge the F3800. If the power demand is too high and the battery is being quickly depleted, I could plug in a generator to recharge the F3800, although I don't think the F3800 can be AC charged without losing the AC output. Maybe by using something like an EC4 ChargeVerter, I could then use the generator into the chargeverter into the XT60s to recharge the F3800, although only at 1200w. Seems inefficient, but maybe I'd move some of the load off the F3800 and directly onto the generator to use up its output above those 1200w. In any case, once solar is no longer in the equation, I could use the generator to top up the F3800 for the next day.

(or, does the use of the SHPP overcome the situation where charging from AC means losing AC output on the F3800? Can you charge an F3800 from AC while it's hooked up to an SHPP, when grid power is off, and the F3800 still be able to power the SHPP simultaneously?)

The final and ultimate question is: can an F3800 do all this? And can it do it on its own, with a few solar panels and a generator inlet & interlock? Or is the SHPP mandatory to make it all work?

Thank you all very much in advance for any information you can share.

Yes, it's correct that you don't need the HPP just to do power backup. But for Time of Use peak shaving then you will need the HPP.

If you don't want to lose solar production in grid-down because any AC coupled solar setup will have to shutdown during an outage to avoid back feeding into the grid, then you can just set up a solar array to feed into the XT60 solar ports of the F3800 directly. This way, regardless of whether it's grid up or grid down, the solar setup will ALWAYS charge the F3800s' batteries.

You can use the HPP and feed solar into the XT60 ports directly so that you won't lose the use of solar in grid-down. In the Self Consumption or Time of Use mode on the HPP in grid up scenarios, it'll apply the solar production to power the home loads first. Any excess will be stored in the batteries. If no excess but instead there's a deficit to power the home loads, then the solar AND the F3800s will BOTH supply the home loads. If that's still not enough, then the grid will pitch in to supplement to cover the home loads 100%. So you can have a scenario in Self Consumption where all 3 power sources can be applied to power the home loads.

Super Off Peak is the only mode that will recharge the battery AUTOMATICALLY, but it'll recharge to 100%. If you only want to recharge to 80%, then it will have to be manual in the Off Peak mode. You basically set to the Off Peak mode, then raise your Battery Reserve Level (BRL) to 80% and it'll charge up to 80% and stop there. Then you will slide the BRL back to your normal low level to be ready for the next Peak time. The Off Peak mode will be in max consumption if the SOC is above 80%. But at 80% or below, it will not discharge power, the grid will power the home loads then.

Yes, using an EG4 chargeverter is an excellent way to convert from AC power from a gas generator to DC to feed into 1 of the XT60 port (or 1 XT60 port of each of the 2 F3800s if you have 2 F3800s) so that you still can get the 240V output from the F3800s to continue to power your house.

You don't need the HPP to do backup only. You can use the F3800s stand alone with the solar charging the XT60 ports and the Chargeverter powering the XT60 port from a gas generator. You can use a Double Power Hub to put 2 F3800s in parallel to double up the power for backup. The HPP is only necessary if you want to do Time of Use peak shaving in addition to backup.

 

[Volusiano]

As for the 120v charging and discharging: it's my understanding that the 240v discharge is disabled when AC charging, at least on a standalone F3800. You can charge on AC and output on the 120v outlets, but the 240v output is disabled. So the question is: does the SHPP remove that restriction? Maybe the SHPP and its direct electrical connection has the hardware necessary to overcome the limitation that a standalone F3800 has, and 240V supply and grid recharging are supported simultaneously. It certainly should work that way, it would be such a severe limitation if it doesn't, so I'm guessing it has to.

It may be that the SHPP takes over all the brains of the operation, and the F3800 becomes a slave and that all operation takes place over the SHPP-to-F3800 connector. I mean, do the F3800's direct-connect AC outlets and 240V outlet still work while connected to the SHPP? Or does the F3800 become truly a "home backup system" when connected to the SHPP? I guess that's the crucial question regarding solar too - does the SHPP's management of solar mean only grid-tied solar panels, or does it still provide for DC charging from the F3800's ports and does it allow that input and use it in its power management plans as solar?

When the F3800 is stand-alone and you do AC charging, it basically takes over 1 of the 2 DC to AC inverters that give you the 2 120V legs and reverts it and use it as an AC to DC inverter for charging. So that's why 240V output is no longer possible, because now only 1 DC to AC inverter is available, and 2 must be available to provide 240V.

To answer your first question in bold above, the HPP does not remove the restriction about AC charging not providing 240V. But if you use the F3800s with the HPP, that issue becomes irrelevant anyway, because that scenario NEVER HAPPENS ANYMORE. The only time the HPP charges the F3800s' batteries is during grid up. So when the F3800s' batteries are charged, the F3800s DON'T NEED to power anything anyway. The grid is doing both jobs, provide power to the home loads, and power to charge the F3800s' batteries, all at the same time. During grid down, the F3800's can never be charged by the HPP because there's no grid power available to let the HPP charge the F3800s in the first place.

Now to answer your second question in bold, when the F3800s are connected to the HPP, all stand-alone functionalities of the F3800 ceases to work. None of the AC input and output inlets and outlets that are physically on the F3800 will work anymore. The USB and DC 12V outputs still work, though. All AC operations between the HPP and the F3800 now happens through the special HPP cable connection to the F3800.

To answer the third question in bold above, the HPP has visibility to the AC couple solar system IF you use the included solar clamp sensor to monitor the current going into the main panel from the solar inverter. The HPP also ALWAYS have visibility into the 2 XT60 ports of the F3800. Both of these solar sources are taken into account in the HPP's normal grid-up operation. In grid-down outage, the AC coupled solar system will shut itself down, so the HPP will no longer see it working. But the HPP continues to see the solar production of the off-grid solar panels that go into the XT60 ports just fine and will continue to take this power into account in its operation. This off-grid solar production will continue to charge the F3800s' batteries as usual when the sun is out.

 

[isleboy]

One thing I noticed. In order to peak shave correctly, you have to use only super off peak and peak for your configuration. If you enter any partial peak time, it will not switch to the batteries during partial peak. (I entered according to my TOU plan, then changed it when I noticed it did not kick in during partial peak)

Another thing of note, the XT60 will only take up to 2.4kW, so for a pair of F3800s you can get 4.8kW solar at most. I got 2 F3800s with 2 expansion batteries. Based on my observations, I'm consistently using a baseline of 0.5-0.7kW for the house, and I jump to 7kW when both the dryer and range are on. I could possibly fill them up if I max out the solar input over 6-7 hours then discharge them once the sun is down and possibly not use any grid power unless I have a jump in usage outside of normal patterns.

Unlike Volusiano, my AC and car charger are on the main breaker because the batteries just do not have enough power to carry everything. I did not install the sub panel that was included as part of the whole home backup package I bought. (2x F3800, 2x expansion batteries, 1x subpanel, 1x 100A breaker, 2x portable 400W solar panels, 1x home power panel) I figured that the subpanel was pretty much the same size as the one I had currently, so I just move that entire subpanel for the house onto the backup side of the home power panel. The instructions say you're only supposed to have a max of 12 circuits on the backup side, I have more. It doesn't seem to affect performance.

When under 500W of discharge, system puts one battery on standby and uses the other then alternates. When over, it distributes the load evenly among both batteries. When replenishing from grid, it slow charges at a rate that gets it to full by peak which is good for the batteries anyway.

Supposedly, it's good for 3000 cycles of charging/discharging which probably equates to the 10 years. Based on LFP batteries, and my understanding of electric cars, LFP is hardier and is more durable for cycling. It's energy density is less so less likely to have thermal incidents. Heat should not be big issues unless it is extreme like over 140 deg F/60 deg C. Generally lithium batteries charge better with some heating. Also since the home loads are not hugely demanding, it should lose less charge capacity over the years. I figured I can recoup my cost from a) tax credit (US IRA bill) and b) peak shaving over 4 years. I haven't gotten a good solar quote or a way to set it up the way I want it yet and the cost still doesn't make sense so far. Plus some peace of mind for rolling blackouts.

I looked at Tesla Powerwall which was more expensive and required a lot more work to setup (and permitting), and doesn't seem to have this peak power transfer option. I also looked at the Powershare option from Tesla, but I figured with this Anker system, if I do decide to get an electric vehicle that can output from its battery, I could probably last quite a few days during blackouts by charging the F3800 from the vehicle. I also have a gas generator as well which can be used if needed to charge the batteries. Solar panels still don't make economic sense for me right now.

 

[Gaijin2]

Volusiano, thank you for the outstanding, encyclopediac knowledge you've shared! You know more about this system than all the paid YouTube "reviewers" combined! Anker's forum and the owner's manuals are useless, you've shared far more than they have.

I think you've answered all my questions, and even made me question whether I need the SHPP at all. I think I've found a way around the peak shaving limitation; I think all I need is to put a smart outlet on the AC plug that I'd be using for AC charging the F3800; that smart outlet would be set to turn the power off during peak times, and power it on during super-off-peak. That way it shouldn't disable the 240V just by being plugged into a dead outlet, right? It should only disable it when the smart outlet turns the power back on. Not ideal, but certainly more workable; I guess the ideal would be to find a DC power supply that takes both AC and DC input, and plug the non-grid-tied solar array into that, and then the DC power supply would combine AC and DC into DC voltage to charge through the XT60's. That way I'd have peak shaving and solar and 240V output. Does such a device exist?

I think I'm sold; now just waiting for Black Friday sales.

Thanks again!

 

[Volusiano]

I think I've found a way around the peak shaving limitation; I think all I need is to put a smart outlet on the AC plug that I'd be using for AC charging the F3800; that smart outlet would be set to turn the power off during peak times, and power it on during super-off-peak. That way it shouldn't disable the 240V just by being plugged into a dead outlet, right? It should only disable it when the smart outlet turns the power back on.

That's exactly what I did for Time of Use before I had the Home Power Panel. I put the AC plug that goes into the F3800 stand-alone on a smart switch and programmed it to turn off at Peak time, then turn back on after Peak time is over. My fridge/freezer/internet gateway/router are connected to the left bank of the 120V to get the UPS 20ms delay functionality, and the right bank of the 120V outlet went to power the other non UPS appliances like the induction cook top, window AC, microwave, electric kettle, computers, etc. I used extension cords for them all because I don't have a generator interlock kit installed, so I never needed any 240V capability.

 

[Volusiano]

One thing I noticed. In order to peak shave correctly, you have to use only super off peak and peak for your configuration. If you enter any partial peak time, it will not switch to the batteries during partial peak. (I entered according to my TOU plan, then changed it when I noticed it did not kick in during partial peak)

Just to clarify, there's no Partial Peak mode in the HPP. There's Peak, Mid Peak, Off Peak and Super Off Peak.

Super Off Peak is the only mode that would recharge the F3800s' batteries back to 100% automatically. It might also do slower charging if there's enough time left before the next Peak time.

Off Peak does not recharge the battery automatically. In fact, if the SOC is greater than 80%, the HPP will discharge it to 80% to power the home loads. At 80% or any point below it (but above the Battery Reserve Level , or BRL), Off Peak will neither discharge nor charge. I program in the Off Peak mode after Peak so that I can slide the BRL up to 80% to recharge the battery from grid up to 80%, then I slide the BRL back up to the normal low level to be ready for the next Peak time. This is because I don't like the SOC to be at 100% during the whole off peak cycle, which is usually at least 18 hours a day on a weekday, or 2 whole weekend days. I think being at 80% SOC instead of 100% SOC helps improve the longevity of the LFP batteries.

Peak and Mid Peak discharges the batteries to the home load 100% until BRL is reached. The only difference between them is if you have 2 different rates for the Peak & Mid Peak so you want to differentiate them for more accurate cost analysis.

 

[isleboy]

That's odd, mine wasn't discharging when it hit the mid peak hours. (Mine are 3-4pm mid-peak or what my electric company says is partial peak, peak 4-9pm then mid-peak 9pm-12am) When I had it set to mimic these hours, the system did not start up at 3pm. When I switched to just peak of 3pm-12am and super off peak 12am-3pm, it's now consistently working as I want it to.

 

[Volusiano]

That's odd, mine wasn't discharging when it hit the mid peak hours. (Mine are 3-4pm mid-peak or what my electric company says is partial peak, peak 4-9pm then mid-peak 9pm-12am) When I had it set to mimic these hours, the system did not start up at 3pm. When I switched to just peak of 3pm-12am and super off peak 12am-3pm, it's now consistently working as I want it to.

That's weird, I never use Mid Peak myself before. But now that you mentioned it wouldn't work for you, I was curious so I tried it out for myself. The first time I tried it, it didn't work for me. So I changed it back to Peak and it worked again. Then I changed it back to Mid Peak the second time, and it started working for me again.

One thing I need to caution you is that the display on the Anker app (with the picture of the house and the home load demand and grid and F3800 and solar) tends to lag a lot, sometimes up to several minutes to really reflect what is actually going on. A faster display of what's going on is the F3800s' displays. So if you want to confirm whether your Mid Peak is drawing from the battery or not, don't look at the Anker home display. Instead, look at the F3800s' displays to confirm that the F3800s are drawing power from the battery. It might not be instantly showing, but within about 30 seconds to a minute top, the F3800s should be showing what it's actually doing long before the home display can catch up to it.

Anyway, I was able to verify that Mid Peak would draw the battery power for me, but not on the first try for some reason. Maybe I wasn't patient or made the mistake of looking at the house display only the first time around, I don't remember exactly. But after changing the ToU plan a couple of times, it started working for me as expected and Mid Peak did draw battery power for me.

 

[wino]

I looked into this and almost purchased it. I decided that the EG4 18K and Wallmount battery were a better long term fit. $6200 for two batteries and the Home Power Panel. Versus $7800 for an 18K and one battery that exceeds the output of 2 Anker batteries. This only allows for access to a sub panel with needed circuits and doesn't allow your on grid solar to work in the event of an outage or whole home backup.

Nicest feature is the ability to take your battery on the road.

I think its a nice system, especially for those without solar. But, I think its too expensive for what you get. Anker is always having sales. Drop it to about $4K and would be a more appealing price. Just my 2 cents.

 

[isleboy]

I didn't try the mid peak a second time. Just noticed it wasn't working 20 minutes into the time period and decided to switch the periods and then rebooted and it worked. I haven't tried it again. I was looking at the SmartMeter from the utility company to look at the draw. I'll stick to the current plan, the "savings" calculator is using the periods I think. Makes not much difference to me since my peak and mid-peak difference is almost negligible.

 

[isleboy]

I looked into this and almost purchased it. I decided that the EG4 18K and Wallmount battery were a better long term fit. $6200 for two batteries and the Home Power Panel. Versus $7800 for an 18K and one battery that exceeds the output of 2 Anker batteries. This only allows for access to a sub panel with needed circuits and doesn't allow your on grid solar to work in the event of an outage or whole home backup.

Nicest feature is the ability to take your battery on the road.

I think its a nice system, especially for those without solar. But, I think its too expensive for what you get. Anker is always having sales. Drop it to about $4K and would be a more appealing price. Just my 2 cents.

I got this set "on sale". 2 F3800s, 2 expansion batteries, power panel, couple 400w portable solar, (didn't really care about the rest of the stuff) cables etc. $8900 + a bunch of taxes. I liked the portable battery because a wall mount battery or anything not portable would require some permits. Also, I can take the batteries for a business I'm running if needed. So, the idea was a winner for me.

 

[Gaijin2]

Hey, here's another question that I don't think I've ever seen addressed, but maybe one of you experts can answer...

As I understand it, when the F3800 detects AC input, it disables 240V output. It's my understanding that there are two banks of 120v outlets, and the right bank of them become disabled while the left bank (the UPS-enabled outlets) continue to function.

However, what happens to the NEMA 14-50R and 14-30R ports? While I know they won't output 240V, can they still output 120V? 120V at 25 amps is still a healthy amount of power supply.

My thinking is that you're going to want a transfer switch instead of running extension cords everywhere, and I'd like to plug into the unused electric stove outlet (which in my house is a 30A circuit and, at 240V, enough to handle all the output the F3800 can give). But if the 14-50R and 14-30R ports go dead when AC input is detected, then my peak-shaving plan using the smart outlet may not work, because while it draws AC, the whole battery effectively goes offline.

BUT - if the ports just go back to 120V, then they can still power pretty much everything I've got; I think the only 240V appliance I've got is a 4-ton air conditioner, and I wasn't planning on trying to power that with an F3800 anyway. So if it will still output 120V 25A on the 14-30R or 14-50R, that could still make the F3800 very usable during AC charging.

 

[tr_st_n_]

Yes, I only connect to the grid side of the HPP, nothing connected on the backup load side of the HPP. The Anker support person is wrong to tell you that the grid side connection is only 1 way. The F3800s do output to this grid side connection for AC coupling. It also receives power from the grid to charge up the F3800s again. So it's actually bidirectional on the grid side. It's the backup load side of the HPP that's only 1 way to the sub panel. If the grid loses power, the HPP is designed to shut off to avoid back feeding power from the F3800s to the grid.

Yes, the XT60 ports still accept charging in ANY setup, stand-alone F3800, or with the HPP, either connected to grid side only (like my case) or connected to both grid and backup load sides (like in other people's cases).

Sounds good. Thanks again. HPP is on its way.

Also, for anyone looking for save money in exchange for warranty, the official Anker eBay store has a few refurb Solix items. The HPP has a 2-year instead of a 5-year warranty when bought through them. If you leave the item in your cart for a day, you'll probably get a -10% offer. I got mine for $766 after tax. I'm hoping refurb just means returned because "oops I bought the wrong thing". I'll report back if it shows up in poor condition.

 

[Volusiano]

However, what happens to the NEMA 14-50R and 14-30R ports? While I know they won't output 240V, can they still output 120V? 120V at 25 amps is still a healthy amount of power supply.

My thinking is that you're going to want a transfer switch instead of running extension cords everywhere, and I'd like to plug into the unused electric stove outlet (which in my house is a 30A circuit and, at 240V, enough to handle all the output the F3800 can give). But if the 14-50R and 14-30R ports go dead when AC input is detected, then my peak-shaving plan using the smart outlet may not work, because while it draws AC, the whole battery effectively goes offline.

It's not safe or sensical to output half of a leg of a 240V source outlet, so it's better for Anker to disable the 240V output altogether. But this is on the stand-alone F3800 specifically.

In the second paragraph, you're not talking about the stand-alone F3800 situation anymore. When you said you want to use your unused electric stove outlet of 240V 30A (similar to what I do, although mine is at 40A), now you're talking about using that unused electric stove outlet to connect to the grid side of Home Power Panel, which acts as the middle man between the grid and the F3800. So that's an entirely different scenario. The NEMA 14-50R and 14-30R simply DON'T WORK ANYMORE when your F3800 is plugged into the HPP. That is NOT how you use the F3800 to power your whole house when it's coupled with the HPP. The HPP will draw the power from the F3800 through the special cable that connects the F3800 and the HPP, and the HPP will use AC coupling to feed this F3800 power BACK into the main panel via that electric stove 30A 240V outlet. There is no charging the F3800 during the Time of Use Peak and Mid Peak mode. The F3800 is discharging its battery power to the main panel via the HPP. So there's no conflict between concurrent charging and discharging when used with the HPP either.