My first time DIY apartment setup

[audia4_20t]

What about running some of the flat rolled panels? I guess I don't have to use the framed ones but they were cheap and it's hard to beat the output.

 

[audia4_20t]

The board my fuses, breakers and bus bars are mounted on is a cement board which comes in 3' x 5".
Commonly called hardie backer board or wonder board. It is fire resistant and moisture resistant.

got it. Sorry for the dumb question but if there is a fire, the thought would be that it wouldn't set the wall on fire? Just less of a chance of a fire spreading quickly?

 

[Northernchateau]

got it. Sorry for the dumb question but if there is a fire, the thought would be that it wouldn't set the wall on fire? Just less of a chance of a fire spreading quickly?

I did it because my basement wall is spray foamed so the board gave me a heat proof, fire proof surface to mount stuff on.

 

[zanydroid]

What about running some of the flat rolled panels? I guess I don't have to use the framed ones but they were cheap and it's hard to beat the output.

Hmm, hard to give a definitive answer; I’m not sure if you can get professional grade certainty on this, like any kind of official engineering to cover your liability (stamping this project is probably a big risk for a PE; I hope you aren’t in a line of work where doing this project could be a conflict or something).

That said, I guess you can try to imagine or calculate for yourself how bad it would be if one of these products flop over the side, like the terminal velocity it can develop.

If you keep the circuit voltage/power level not much above class 2/class 3 (60VDC for class2, higher for class3, and 100W per circuit) that might make the loose wire more palatable. Maybe also stay below the limit in 690.31(D) for max PV DC voltage and current outside metal conduit or cable.

Also, the PV cable you have isn’t supposed to be in direct contact with roofing material, that subjects it to abrasion and the material is not listed for that kind of damage.

 

[audia4_20t]

Also, excuse my ignorance but why is there fear around my battery when Jackery or Bluetti devices are just batteries that people leave in their homes?

 

[zanydroid]

Also, excuse my ignorance but why is there fear around my battery when Jackery or Bluetti devices are just batteries that people leave in their homes?

There is a UL listing for batteries, inverters, and energy storage systems (integrated combination of batteries and inverters). This means there is a standards document listing the safety requirements and specifications. To get the listing mark the product is checked out by an independent engineer working at the testing lab and subject to a battery of tests including destructive ones and non destructive ones you would assume must always pass (EG dielectric tests to confirm there’s proper insulation, just because it looks like an insulator doesn’t mean it is)

If you compare listed products vs non listed products you can often see physical differences. One example that comes to mind is for contactors. UL contactors generally look have physical guards preventing incidental contact with the terminals. There’s probably also hidden differences too— a lot of the unlisted chinese MCBs look identical on the outside since MCBs are a pretty standard format.

Legally speaking once a product is listed it is suitable for installation into electrical system subject to permit enforcement. There are frequently exceptions where you can circumvent this with engineering supervision, but that can cost more $$$$ than just using the listed components. Put another way, listing and following code is sort of a way to build something reasonably safe and functional without having to engineer it from the ground up (rather taking advantage of engineering work people did for you in designing the UL spec, getting the product designed and listed, writing the code).

For switchgear like your breakers, fuses & wires, an unlisted one may or may not carry the interruption, current, voltage, etc rating as claimed.

For LIfepo batteries, sure, they are safer, but there could still be sub par wiring design between the cells. Similarly, you can have a device made of components that have been registered with the testing lab as being higher quality, but that doesn’t automatically mean the device is legal to install. It still needs to be integration tested, so to speak, at the lab.

I don’t know if Jackery/Bluetti makes listed products. They at least are an entity that’s probably easier to sue/have more to lose.

Now all that said, there is a legit argument to be made about how UL listed residential ESS are still way too expensive…. The market is still small. But for a lot of the other components in solar there’s much less of a reason to cut corners.

 

[audia4_20t]

There is a UL listing for batteries, inverters, and energy storage systems (integrated combination of batteries and inverters). This means there is a standards document listing the safety requirements and specifications. To get the listing mark the product is checked out by an independent engineer working at the testing lab and subject to a battery of tests including destructive ones and non destructive ones you would assume must always pass (EG dielectric tests to confirm there’s proper insulation, just because it looks like an insulator doesn’t mean it is)

If you compare listed products vs non listed products you can often see physical differences. One example that comes to mind is for contactors. UL contactors generally look have physical guards preventing incidental contact with the terminals. There’s probably also hidden differences too— a lot of the unlisted chinese MCBs look identical on the outside since MCBs are a pretty standard format.

Legally speaking once a product is listed it is suitable for installation into electrical system subject to permit enforcement. There are frequently exceptions where you can circumvent this with engineering supervision, but that can cost more $$$$ than just using the listed components. Put another way, listing and following code is sort of a way to build something reasonably safe and functional without having to engineer it from the ground up (rather taking advantage of engineering work people did for you in designing the UL spec, getting the product designed and listed, writing the code).

For switchgear like your breakers, fuses & wires, an unlisted one may or may not carry the interruption, current, voltage, etc rating as claimed.

For LIfepo batteries, sure, they are safer, but there could still be sub par wiring design between the cells. Similarly, you can have a device made of components that have been registered with the testing lab as being higher quality, but that doesn’t automatically mean the device is legal to install. It still needs to be integration tested, so to speak, at the lab.

I don’t know if Jackery/Bluetti makes listed products. They at least are an entity that’s probably easier to sue/have more to lose.

Now all that said, there is a legit argument to be made about how UL listed residential ESS are still way too expensive…. The market is still small. But for a lot of the other components in solar there’s much less of a reason to cut corners.

Really helpful thank you.

Also added a breaker between the battery and inverter. Will get some steel cables at minimum this weekend for the panels

 

[x98myers7]

I admire your desire to control your own power. honestly, it's a decent, basic setup. but unfortunately, as others have said... this is extremely dangerous. those panels HAVE to be properly secured with at least a reasonable attempt at meeting code.

one strong storm later... one of those panels takes off, and injures/damages something, then you're liable. not cool.

 

[zanydroid]

To add to the liability point, I doubt you would have a positive conversation with your insurance provider/broker about anything less than an industry standard level of securement.

There’s also the possibility of crossing over to a criminal level of negligence if something really bad happens.

To be a little more blunt about something I alluded to in earlier messages. I think if you get an engineer to stamp your designs they would only work with you on a standard attachment method. If you are yourself a PE licensed in California and stamping for yourself, I would imagine the current install is against some professional code of conduct which further adds to the liability exposure…

 

[mikebergy]

Curious what your electric rates are, and the actual savings after installation.

Rates are unreasonable in California when compared to most places in the country.
See link below for the rates in my neck of the woods, central coastal California. It gets worse in some places.
PG&E's EV2-A Rates

I literally just purchased 8kW worth of components I'll be installing next month (400W URE modules w/APS DS3-L micros). I use on the lower side of what many in California do, since I don't need to run AC, averaging approx 17kWh daily, including about 65kWh per week of EV charging, and I'll pay back the $10k cost in about 5 years, less than 4 with the federal tax credit.

 

[mikebergy]

Can you show some pics of the cable? I've thought about doing this and would be totally open to it



Can you elaborate on the flame retardant surface?



It's a good point, but I don't think property owners have any incentive when I'm paying the bill. Part of me gets frustrated because there is no out-of-the-box solution for a temporary renter.

Out of curiosity, what are the non-Chinese versions of these things? These seemed like really common brands of things. Even Renogy looks like re-branded Chinese stuff.

I know everybody is saying to mount them properly. I agree, but that does not seem to be an option for you.

As a middle ground - might I suggest you to at least buy some racking and at least tie all the panels in together, and then anchor the racking with some really heavy weights. Personally, I am using Iron Ridge XR10 on my system, but you could easily get away with something cheaper, and then place sandbags or some concrete bags over the four corners (the racking would extend past the ends of the array). This would not be to anything resembling code, but would be safer than just having the panels loose. It would also get some airflow under the panels as was suggested earlier.

 

[zanydroid]

Rates are unreasonable in California when compared to most places in the country.
See link below for the rates in my neck of the woods, central coastal California. It gets worse in some places.
PG&E's EV2-A Rates

I literally just purchased 8kW worth of components I'll be installing next month (400W URE modules w/APS DS3-L micros). I use on the lower side of what many in California do, since I don't need to run AC, averaging approx 17kWh daily, including about 65kWh per week of EV charging, and I'll pay back the $10k cost in about 5 years, less than 4 with the federal tax credit.

For another data point, I'm near San Francisco in a similar climate, on a property with 45% solar access. I did a basic LCOE analysis last night with an expansion I'm speccing out. Even with a really expensive turnkey install (>$4/W, I'm not buying this for the record, just ran the numbers to sanity check vs DIY), after tax credit the LCOE works out to $0.15/kWh, half of the cost of buying from grid, and you can still break even on the system with NEM2 in about 11.5 years. With 90% solar access you can have the most expensive install and still break even in 6 years.

 

[x98myers7]

ballast mounting systems are installed all across the world. unfortunately, you'll need to do a lot of complex math and (ideally) find out what the building construction is like to confirm the roof can support the needed weight. having a separate ballast for each panel is probably the route you need to go.

something like this

PowerField Energy PowerRack PV solar ballasted ground mount system

Note: We can provide a physical layout design for your array as well as the number and placement of PowerField racks throughout the array. Please contact our engineering team for a complete wind load analysis and calculated ballasting diagram. This rack will only work with modules that have a...

www.solar-electric.com

 

[shopman]

you could mount the panels to some unistrut. Leave the strut hanging out beyond the panels so you can place an 80 lb sack of concrete on each strut end. The strut will lift the panels off the roof a bit for cooling and the concrete will keep it weighted down so it won't take off in a wind. not the right way to do it but its a hell of a lot safer than what you have now.

 

[SeaGal]

Storm Eunice claims a second victim in Belgium: a man hit by a solar panel dies of his injuries

A man who was hit on the head by a solar panel on Friday, as Storm Eunice passed over the East Flemish city of Ghent, had died of his injuries.

www.vrt.be

 

[Ryranch]

ballast mounting systems are installed all across the world. unfortunately, you'll need to do a lot of complex math and (ideally) find out what the building construction is like to confirm the roof can support the needed weight. having a separate ballast for each panel is probably the route you need to go.

something like this

PowerField Energy PowerRack PV solar ballasted ground mount system

Note: We can provide a physical layout design for your array as well as the number and placement of PowerField racks throughout the array. Please contact our engineering team for a complete wind load analysis and calculated ballasting diagram. This rack will only work with modules that have a...

www.solar-electric.com

SanTan solar is out of stock, just purchased 12 from NAWS in Flagstaff.

 

[joeExotic]

Just a small suggestion regarding the solar panels:
Have them lifted up a bit to allow for some airflow underneath. The more the panels heatup, the less efficient they are.

You could put them on some cement blocks, or better yet on some angle brackets, angled to the sun in your area. You will get better performance and the panels will last longer.

I use milk crates to prop them up and zip-tie everything together LOL

 

[joeExotic]

please secure the panels so nobody will die from the corner of a metal frame hitting their head when the wind picks up.
i would not walk by this apartment with knowledge of that setup.

tilting to reduce heat will significantly increase the amount of force wind will push them sideways with.

please please please please secure them with something. ?

i applaud your motivation to seek a sun powered solution. it is exciting to rely on the sun for electric power.

kind regards and good luck with this project

I'm using milk crates to prop three panels up and using zip-ties to hold everything together. I also put a brick on each milk crate for a little added insurance. HAHA