My power bill is jumping in Oct…

[SparkyJJO]

The disadvantage of the Radian is that it is not yet closed loop with any lithium batteries

I doubt it ever will be.

 

[fafrd]

Correct , but the real increase in this scenario is somewhat hidden in that the peak hour that they get to charge you is that hour within the 3 hour window… so if you screw up , and don’t know or don’t r remember to adjust your habits , you are charged 100x what the normal kWh fee would be… for that hour…

E.g. . 13.5 cents per kWh VS $13.50 per kWh..that’s the same as adding an extra 100 kWh to the bill if you were still paying the old rate….

No, it’s not $13.50 per kWh. It’s $13.50 per MONTH per kiloWATT.

So let’s say you consume 500kWh per month and you peak power usage over the peak period hours all month long was 1000W.

You’ll pay an additional charge of $13.50 for that month or an additional $0.027 per kWh consumed.

Yes, that’s an increase (of just over 20%) but if you want to avoid that increase, avoid using as much power as possible during peak hours (all month long)..

For perspective, our peak period rates in California are approaching $0.60 / kWh (each and every kWh all month ling, not just the highest one).

And off-peak, our rates are now approaching $0.50/kWh…

Resulting in paying the old fee all month …..and then getting hit for the highest hour demand use point for a 100 fold the normal cost…

On a freezing cold winter morn , between getting the kids a cooked breakfast and ready for school , perhaps showers and cooking for the parents, hair dryers , tvs, toasters, computers, running heat to warm the place up , it will be easy to rack up a a pretty good usage between 6 to 9 am.

So the big “Eye in the sky “ watching all this says, Hmm …”look at this place guys….. they are already up to 5.5 kWh between 7-8 using all those devices..”.
He he , let’s see , 5.5 x 13.50 ….well that just cost him an extra 75 bucks this month…

What if ya used 10.5 kw during peak hour…135 bucks extra..??

What if ya had the family up for Christmas or new years…or a Super Bowl party.

Either schedule your party for after peak hours or go hog wild and pay an extra $13.50 or $27…. how much ya gonna spend on booze?

Or schedule all your parties in the same month of the year .

What about in summer when the peak heat of the day is when you’re getting home 3 - 6 pm , trying to cook supper Take showers , do the stuff after work you have to do…get the place cooled down a bit..

Yes there will be work arounds ….and ways to mitigate some of this …

I dont think this is very transparent way of doing business with the average person

I agree TOU pricing is more transparent and easier to manage.

When you get charged more for one specific even that happened on one day of the month, how are you going to go back to track down the culprit so it doesn’t happen again?

 

[Danke]

For perspective, our peak period rates in California are approaching $0.60 / kWh (each and every kWh all month ling, not just the highest one).

And off-peak, our rates are now approaching $0.50/kWh…

Is there a break for EV charging?

 

[SunDave]

For perspective, our peak period rates in California are approaching $0.60 / kWh (each and every kWh all month ling, not just the highest one).

And off-peak, our rates are now approaching $0.50/kWh…

Hi fafrd,
Is that the real rate, or the per kWh rate? For example, if you take your whole bill, and divide it by kWh consumed that month, is it a lot higher in reality?

 

[fnnwizard]

For Southern CA Edison, depending on the TOU Rate structure a consumer chooses, there are "3" main rates, with sub rate bracket differences.
It's not as easy to determind the final cost/savings since there are "baseline credits" (depending on the area the consumer lives in) for 2 of the TOU structures and a minimum fixed costs for all 3.

We had to put everything on multiple spreadsheets with actual energy consumed for the various time frames over a few years to get a good idea. The lowest absolute rates do not necessarily mean a lower bill, but the difference is small likely less than $10 if solar/battery are sized efficiently.

These are the rates before taxes.

 

[sunsurfer]

Geez....so glad I decided to go off-grid vs bringing in power. Grid was only going to be $2k to setup but dang.. what a mess its becoming. Now the $20k in solar gear doesn't feel so bad........lol

 

[fafrd]

Is there a break for EV charging?

Yes, but then they charge you even more..

 

[fafrd]

Hi fafrd,
Is that the real rate, or the per kWh rate? For example, if you take your whole bill, and divide it by kWh consumed that month, is it a lot higher in reality?

No, there is modestly-sized ‘baseline’ where rates are discounted, so the average $/kWh will certainly be less than peak rates and can even be slightly below off-peak rates.

I haven’t paid for electricity since I added grid-tied solar in 2016 but highest rates were $0.15/kWh then and they’ve increased to pretty much 4 times that today…

I’d imagine the average non-solar consumer is paying $0.55kWh +/- 2-3 cents per kWh on average today (and slightly less over winter months).

 

[fafrd]

Geez....so glad I decided to go off-grid vs bringing in power. Grid was only going to be $2k to setup but dang.. what a mess its becoming. Now the $20k in solar gear doesn't feel so bad........lol

The one promise solar actually delivered on here in California was “protect yourself against rate increases”…

My system only cost me $5K in BOM + ~$5K in install that I did myself back in 2016. My electricity bill would be over $2500/year today…

 

[Oldphile]

For Southern CA Edison, depending on the TOU Rate structure a consumer chooses, there are "3" main rates, with sub rate bracket differences.
It's not as easy to determind the final cost/savings since there are "baseline credits" (depending on the area the consumer lives in) for 2 of the TOU structures and a minimum fixed costs for all 3.

We had to put everything on multiple spreadsheets with actual energy consumed for the various time frames over a few years to get a good idea. The lowest absolute rates do not necessarily mean a lower bill, but the difference is small likely less than $10 if solar/battery are sized efficiently.

These are the rates before taxes.
View attachment 239632View attachment 239631View attachment 239630

Did the POCO use new math to create this confusion?

 

[Recovering EE]

The utility is required to plan to provide 24/7 power. In order to meet that requirement, they pay for the right for firm power, whether they use it or not. That is what the $13/kW is for. The utility has determined that 3-6pm in the summer is their peak time, and they have to commit to having generating capacity available regardless of whether the sun is shining, everyone or no-one has the AC on, factories at full-tilt, etc.

The flip side to the $13/kW charge that industries can get is Interruptible Power. For a lower cost of kWh, the utility can turn off their power during peak times.

If you want guaranteed power during those peak times, then you pay the cost of the utility arranging to have that power when you want it. If you want to provide your own power during those periods (using batteries or whatnot), then that works too. Basically distributed grid storage for the utility.

In Connecticut, instead of the Peak Charge, utilities will pay you to discharge your batteries during peak times. Basically buying firm power from Energy Storage Systems. So the $13/kW charge is hidden in everyone's $/kWh charge, and people with batteries can get a break from that charge.

In California, those with Tesla PowerWalls can join what's called a "Virtual Power Plant" with other PW owners. I've got two PWs, and last week (during a "grid emergency"), I allowed the CA ISO to deplete them to 25% SOC, one afternoon. They're paying me $2/kWh for those 20kWh. There are about 1500 households in my area doing the same. I expect to see a couple more "grid emergencies" before summer/fall are over. Last year, I got a check for ~$100.

It keeps SCE from needing to build more dirty peaker plants. It's a win-win-win, when you consider public benefit from less air pollution.

 

[Recovering EE]

What pisses me off, is IF this knowledgeable forum crowd here , has many interpretations of what a new rule placed on the public means , how can they think the average person with zero electrical awarness has a chance to understand … most wont even know somthing changed or why the power bill went up…they will just pay it…

It’s just the way the big whigs do..

I don’t really care about the money as much as I just hate getting played…

JRH…

"whigs"

Interesting typo, with all kinds of different meanings.

 

[J.H.]

No, it’s not $13.50 per kWh. It’s $13.50 per MONTH per kiloWATT.

yes 13.50 per kilowatt hour of the highest usage hour during the stated demand period…
That hours charge is in addition to the other usage during the month at the standard rate in effect..

30 days x 24 hours = 720 hours total…

Then you will be billed for 719 hrs usage at the going std fee rate…let just say that was $250.00.
Or 1666 kWh at .15cts per…( the old rate)

PLUS *******

You will be billed for the highest use single hour within the demand period ( one hour);at 13.50 for each kWh used in that single hour period …..in addition to the other 250 dollars for the 719 other hours…

SO… if you used 5.5 kWh in the demand period hour = 5.5 kWh x13.50 per kWh = $74.25
+ the $250.00 due for the 719 hours of regular use…

250.00 + 74.24 = 324.75….


The Total old bill before change would have been 250.00 + 5.5x .15 CT’s per kWh for the one hour which
equals 82 cents …

250.00 + 82 CT’s = $250.82


These are close but are still rough numbers as there is several smaller fixed and floating fees in every bill..
But it’s close..

That’s a decent difference ..$ 74.00

Now that the way I understand it as no one has called me back to verify my questions on its accuracy…

Correct me if you see it differently …I’m a musician not a mathematician .

Jim.

 

[J.H.]

"whigs"

Interesting typo, with all kinds of different meanings.

It wasn’t a typo… it was written as a shot at the fat cats…the suits…the big whigs..

The rulemakers of the world……

 

[SunDave]

JRH, did you try the online calculator on the po-co website? You can enter that exact scenario and see the result, but I believe you are spot on. Only higher charges, no decrease no matter how you use it. I'm sure they sell it as a "new rate plan", or "rate structure", but factually it is just higher rates.

 

[J.H.]

JRH, did you try the online calculator on the po-co website? You can enter that exact scenario and see the result, but I believe you are spot on. Only higher charges, no decrease no matter how you use it. I'm sure they sell it as a "new rate plan", or "rate structure", but factually it is just higher rates.

They are selling it here as a possible lower rate for some and maybe a half percent rise for others…
The tv channels are saying about 2% increase..

I will tell ya what , I will just flip the main breaker off ( if on grid.during those hours .) and if on solar not worry about it…
We are almost half way thru the billing cycle this month and I have used a total of about 12 kWh so far….
Damn, That’s almost 2 dollars of fees I owe………I may have to hit up a friend to cover the full months bill…..

 

[Recovering EE]

It wasn’t a typo… it was written as a shot at the fat cats…the suits…the big whigs..

The rulemakers of the world……

Then that's "bigwigs".

We call important people “bigwigs,” according to the OED, because “of the large wigs formerly worn by men of distinction or importance.”

 

[fafrd]

yes 13.50 per kilowatt hour of the highest usage hour during the stated demand period…
That hours charge is in addition to the other usage during the month at the standard rate in effect..

30 days x 24 hours = 720 hours total…

Then you will be billed for 719 hrs usage at the going std fee rate…let just say that was $250.00.
Or 1666 kWh at .15cts per…( the old rate)

PLUS *******

You will be billed for the highest use single hour within the demand period ( one hour);at 13.50 for each kWh used in that single hour period …..in addition to the other 250 dollars for the 719 other hours…

SO… if you used 5.5 kWh in the demand period hour = 5.5 kWh x13.50 per kWh = $74.25
+ the $250.00 due for the 719 hours of regular use…

250.00 + 74.24 = 324.75….


The Total old bill before change would have been 250.00 + 5.5x .15 CT’s per kWh for the one hour which
equals 82 cents …

250.00 + 82 CT’s = $250.82


These are close but are still rough numbers as there is several smaller fixed and floating fees in every bill..
But it’s close..

That’s a decent difference ..$ 74.00

Now that the way I understand it as no one has called me back to verify my questions on its accuracy…

Correct me if you see it differently …I’m a musician not a mathematician .

Jim.

Your estimate came out with a 29% increase where mine estimated a 20% increase (per month), but yes, that is the correct way to see it.

To escape from thinking you are paying ‘more’ for that single kWh, consider this:

-higher peak power consumption (in Watts, not kWh) requires higher-capacity transformers, etc…

If you manage your usage so that you use less peak power and can get by with a lower-rated service that does not require a higher-capacity transformer, why should you be paying the same rates as your neighbor who has a peak consumption which is 5-10 times higher and needs more expensive equipment to service his power needs?

The fact they are calculating this demand fee based on measured peak usage hour in the month rather than the size/capacity of your service/main breaker actually gives you a way to save money by never using the full capacity you have available.

Think of is as a monthly charge for the power capacity the utility has at the ready for you rather than a fee for that specific hour.

You even out demand during those peak hours and you save money while the utility eases strain on their grid.

 

[fnnwizard]

yes 13.50 per kilowatt hour of the highest usage hour during the stated demand period…
That hours charge is in addition to the other usage during the month at the standard rate in effect..

30 days x 24 hours = 720 hours total…

Then you will be billed for 719 hrs usage at the going std fee rate…let just say that was $250.00.
Or 1666 kWh at .15cts per…( the old rate)

PLUS *******

You will be billed for the highest use single hour within the demand period ( one hour);at 13.50 for each kWh used in that single hour period …..in addition to the other 250 dollars for the 719 other hours…

SO… if you used 5.5 kWh in the demand period hour = 5.5 kWh x13.50 per kWh = $74.25
+ the $250.00 due for the 719 hours of regular use…

250.00 + 74.24 = 324.75….


The Total old bill before change would have been 250.00 + 5.5x .15 CT’s per kWh for the one hour which
equals 82 cents …

250.00 + 82 CT’s = $250.82


These are close but are still rough numbers as there is several smaller fixed and floating fees in every bill..
But it’s close..

That’s a decent difference ..$ 74.00

Now that the way I understand it as no one has called me back to verify my questions on its accuracy…

Correct me if you see it differently …I’m a musician not a mathematician .

Jim.

Yep, that's what demand charges with be, though their online calc says if you are paying $250 now, the new, non demand, normal consumption bill would only be $182 @ what looks like $0.105/kWh + a fix fee ~ $28?

While the delta between a current bill and a new bill can likely be low single digit %'s for non solar people, it seems you can really save money ($67 based on your use example above and if PoCo calc is correct @ 10.5 cents/kWh) under the new demand billing if you can cut off/cut down kW during demand time.

The delta between demand and non demand charges though, makes it so you have to have (extra) batteries and/or (extra) panels.

Your July bill should show an ON-PEAK number you can used to give an idea of new demand bill.

* Picture is of calc with and without demand use. Demand use of 5.2kW to bring bill to same as what current bill will be.

 

[J.H.]

Then that's "bigwigs".

We call important people “bigwigs,” according to the OED, because “of the large wigs formerly worn by men of distinction or importance.”

Then that's "bigwigs".

We call important people “bigwigs,” according to the OED, because “of the large wigs formerly worn by men of distinction or importance.”

Gotch…I’m aware of the British tilt in this…. Wigs… ya know powderd wigs ..
But many pronounce it whigs where I’m from , the redneck south we sorta say things different..we sort slur it so I write it like I say it…

Like you all…y’all…..you-uns, same meaning different words..

But thank for bringing it to my attention…

actually I use the term based on the 70s animated movie Watership Down ( another British refrence) about a symbolic warren of rabbits on the run for freedom from hate and persecution..The title song was sung by Art Garfunkel.. His name may give one a metaphorical hint as to who the movie was talking about..
The lead hero rabbit that saved everyone was called “Bigwig…”
A sorta Captain Kirk of a rabbit..

I just say Bigwhig..as I simply like saying it that way…plus we speak different down here..
And by God , we is proud of it..

 

[OffGridForGood]

Actually "Whigs" as in the political faction - is correct.

Things like laundry can be moved to other times of day but the demand charge seems designed to catch the average home during supper-time when they run ovens, hotwater dishes, and are not likely to move these types of loads outside of the demand load window.

 

[wattmatters]

Correct me if you see it differently …I’m a musician not a mathematician .

While I can't say for certain for each and every location which has or is introducing a peak demand charge, it's usually the case then when a demand charge applies, the consumption tariffs are lower than they otherwise would be.

So while you get a demand charge, the charge for total energy consumption is usually lower. It's a case of swings and roundabouts.

 

[J.H.]

I was mostly interested in it as its in my home area… plus there’s not a lot to do stuck out in the middle of the Forrest..im fine with anything they do as I will not in any big way participate, but I don’t like things that are not clear in their message…that’s why I try to figure out odd things just for the drill.

They (the system) is headed toward a different cardinal point on life’s compass than I am
But I do keep my eye on their actions to stay aware even if I’m not seriously affected…

I have friends in this very rural area that arnt as independant or lucky as I am…So I try to be a good source of info that they may not know about…
and they in turn are always there if I need help…

This is just the start of further rate increases …you guys know it..I know it…it’s just the way the system works…

Thanks for the info…I’m looking forward to getting first new bill, to see how they play it out…and where it goes from here..
This will be fun…

Cheers guys…J.

 

[J.H.]

While I can't say for certain for each an every location which has or is introducing a peak demand charge, it's usually the case then when a demand charge applies, the consumption tariffs are lower than they otherwise would be.

So while you get a demand charge, the charge for total energy consumption is usually lower. It's a case of swings and roundabouts.

Let’s hope so….I hope yer correct…either way I’m just Gona keep adding arrays ..better to have a back door in all situations …

J.

 

[SunDave]

While I can't say for certain for each and every location which has or is introducing a peak demand charge, it's usually the case then when a demand charge applies, the consumption tariffs are lower than they otherwise would be.

Indeed. It's your typical poison pill. Gets people to accept the new billing strategy. Rates can always be raised again later, and the new charges remain.