Need help chasing some gremlins with the 6000xp

[longcreekridge]

Hello y'all,

Relatively new to all this and really could use some help. I have a 280ah PowerPro battery (indoor) and a 6000xp, wired to a 100a panel, running a woodshop inside a barn at a remote homestead. No grid tie at present, but maybe soon. Have a temporary, quick and dirty array using five 400w Hyperion bifacials, still building the mounts to hold an eventual ten.

Battery charges just fine, usage is still pretty low as I get up to speed with the shop. I'm usually topped off by noon and haven't gone below 90% SOC in the three weeks the system has been running.

I have, however, had three issues that I cannot seem to diagnose or solve:

1. The biggest problem is that my 2 HP Harbor Freight dust collector triggers a E022 "Over Current" fault. I've only tried it about 5 times, happens every time. This dust collector has a big startup/surge draw but runs absolutely fine on an extension cord plugged into a 20amp breaker on my power pole ~75 ft. away. When I mentioned this on the Facebook group, I got a lot of suggestions to get a soft start. Tried a pretty robust plug in model (G11 Torque Tamer) and still get the same fault and shutdown. If I have simply hit the limit on the 6000xp's capabilities, so be it, I will try to find a more efficient and/or 240v dust collector, but I can't make sense of why this thing runs fine on 20amp grid power. This is a 120v motor, running on its own breaker and a different line (L2) than the other tools, though I have tried it on the tool circuit with the same results.

2. The second problem is more intermittent. Maybe one of every ten times I go to run my miter saw, the green "Normal" light goes off and power cuts out. No fault registered, no red light. Cycling the inverter returns everything to normal and the saw starts and runs fine until the same thing happens, hours or days later. No pattern I can detect except for (maybe) too short an interval between power on and off using the saw in quick bursts. Power cord on the saw is old and could probably use a replacement, which I will do soon.

3. The last problem is rare, and to my knowledge has only happened during one episode, but I'm not at this location all the time and only recently got the dongle set up and a cellular internet signal to keep it connected full time. During peak production hours one day, I got multiple E019 "Bus Voltage Too High" faults despite the fact that I'm only running five panels, with at most 180v. Battery was full. I cut the PV switch (as well as the external breaker) for a few hours, powered everything down and back up, and all was fine later.

Any help running down or solving these problems would be hugely appreciated. Adding some other details below, in case any of them are relevant.

- I had some trouble getting the 2/0 lugs I found at Advance Auto onto the PowerPro battery cables. Ended up using my hydraulic crimper to compress the wire bundle a bit before getting the lug on and crimping down. It's not the best looking crimp of all time, but it is on there very tight. Could these issues all be related to a less than perfect battery > inverter connection?
- One of my panels was totally cracked during a rather careless offload into my driveway. All the other panels look (and seem to perform) just fine, but could small cracks or a break in the seal cause the Bus Voltage/PV input weirdness?
-My grounding setup is as follows: Panels wired together and last one wired to a buried ground rod, which is also tied to a second ground rod 10 feet away, which in turn is tied to the breaker panel. Neutral and ground bonded inside panel, disabled on inverter.
-Updated and running latest firmware.

 

[Adam De Lay]

1 and 2 might be the same issue and that’s regarding motor surges. It takes a lot more power to start those motors than to keep them running at full speed. The grid can handle those surges no problem but all inverters have different thresholds of surges they can handle.

Not exactly sure on #3. If your panel is cracked though, I would try and seal it or not use it. Would hate for water to get inside and start shorting things out.

 

[longcreekridge]

1 and 2 might be the same issue and that’s regarding motor surges. It takes a lot more power to start those motors than to keep them running at full speed. The grid can handle those surges no problem but all inverters have different thresholds of surges they can handle.

Not exactly sure on #3. If your panel is cracked though, I would try and seal it or not use it. Would hate for water to get inside and start shorting things out.

Thanks for the reply. I think I will try moving the soft start to the miter saw for a while and see if the problem repeats. Maybe some surges are higher than others? Regarding #3, just for clarity, I have sealed the cracked panel with a spray on sealant but at present it is not in use at all and can't be blamed. I was wondering about unknown cracks in the supposedly intact panels.

 

[Adam De Lay]

Some surges could be higher than others OR you could have more things running at the same time that you start the mitre saw and that pushes the inverter over the edge.

Maybe @EG4TechSolutionsTeam can speak more to the E019 "Bus Voltage Too High" faults.

 

[timselectric]

I believe that your problem is not enough battery capacity, for the surge.

 

[Adam De Lay]

I believe that your problem is not enough battery capacity, for the surge.

I guess it would depend on how big of a surge we're talking about and how sensitive the powerpro batteries are set for surge. All I see is they can handle 200a max discharge and up to <600a for <0.1 mS.

 

[longcreekridge]

I'm still not understanding something fundamental here: if the surge is higher than 20 amps, why is it not tripping the 20 amp breaker when I use grid power to run the same machine? Along the same lines, if it is not pulling more than 20 amps, why can't the 6000xp handle it?

 

[fmeili1]

I'm still not understanding something fundamental here: if the surge is higher than 20 amps, why is it not tripping the 20 amp breaker when I use grid power to run the same machine? Along the same lines, if it is not pulling more than 20 amps, why can't the 6000xp handle it?

Most breakers are able to handle about 3-10 times of it's rating (depending on the model) for some seconds (depending on the model). At least the inrush/surge current "robustness" of a typical breaker is much higher than what an inverter can handle.

 

[Quattrohead]

It sounds like both of your motors are 120 volts and rather large so yeah the inverter is not going to like them unfortunately, you were just asking too much of it. The v-bus over voltage has been addressed with a firmware update so grab or push the latest firmware update and install.
Circuit breakers are slow and lazy, an inverter will catch the overload and protect itself about 10 hours before any circuit breaker will notice it.

 

[AntronX]

I keep seeing these reports of 6000xp overcurrent trips when starting power tools. Maybe @EG4TechSolutionsTeam could talk to OEM about adding custom tool start mode that allows voltage to drop to maintain max surge current just like Victron does it, for example 800 watt Phoenix inverter can start 170A LRA chop saw. Users will have to agree that this mode could stall and potentially burn out simultaneously running air conditioner or fridge compressors. May have to separate sensitive circuits to another inverter running independently from tool inverter.

 

[MakeMePower]

I'm still not understanding something fundamental here: if the surge is higher than 20 amps, why is it not tripping the 20 amp breaker when I use grid power to run the same machine? Along the same lines, if it is not pulling more than 20 amps, why can't the 6000xp handle it?

i have a wood splitter on a very distant circuit, where my dual inverter generators could not start it, and this is on a 15 amp circuit. I threw a inrush meter on it, and this thing pulls 70 amps on startup and doesn't trip the breaker. Inverter generators weren't even close to getting it started.

 

[rogerheflin]

Thanks for the reply. I think I will try moving the soft start to the miter saw for a while and see if the problem repeats. Maybe some surges are higher than others? Regarding #3, just for clarity, I have sealed the cracked panel with a spray on sealant but at present it is not in use at all and can't be blamed. I was wondering about unknown cracks in the supposedly intact panels.

The 6000 is rated for 3000 per leg (for 25 amps on one 120 leg) and can surge higher, but that motor is very likely to need even more its surge capacity.

You might see if the dust collector motor is a 120/240v motor, a lot the larger motors are rated for both and just need minor wiring adjustments to work.

 

[rogerheflin]

I'm still not understanding something fundamental here: if the surge is higher than 20 amps, why is it not tripping the 20 amp breaker when I use grid power to run the same machine? Along the same lines, if it is not pulling more than 20 amps, why can't the 6000xp handle it?

Breakers (and fuses) are not exact devices that flip at the exact rating and have trip curves. You can run say 40A for quite(seconds) a while before it trips, and say 80A for a shorter period of time and it won't trip. Sustain 25A for minutes and it will trip. If they did not work this way, just about every AC motor larger than 1/2 hp(possibly smaller) would blow the breaker every time.

 

[timselectric]

I guess it would depend on how big of a surge we're talking about and how sensitive the powerpro batteries are set for surge. All I see is they can handle 200a max discharge and up to <600a for <0.1 mS.

If I'm not mistaken, 2 power pro batteries are what's recommended.
But 200a should cover most things. It just depends on how quickly the inverter or BMS react.

 

[Adam De Lay]

If I'm not mistaken, 2 power pro batteries are what's recommended.
But 200a should cover most things. It just depends on how quickly the inverter or BMS react.

The recommendation for the 6000XP is at least 200Ah.

 

[timselectric]

The recommendation for the 6000XP is at least 200Ah.

Yup
I was mixing it up with server rack batteries.

 

[BigGun]

I had that same problem with my 5000w / 15000w surge LF inverter. I had one battery with a 200 amp BMS 300amp surge( CALB 180cells with a 540 amp surge 10 sec ) . My circular saw would run sometimes and others it would throw an over current fault in the BMS ( I think the times when it faulted the battery voltage was lower/ more amps drawn ). Now that I have three batteries, it starts everything I've thrown at it.

 

[TM48]

Do you have an ground wire running between the panels and the inverter?

 

[longcreekridge]

Do you have an ground wire running between the panels and the inverter?

Not to the inverter but to the breaker panel. Is that wrong?

 

[TM48]

Not if your inverter is grounded to the same breaker panel.

 

[timselectric]

Everything should be grounded.
Anytime you run circuit conductors, there is supposed to be an EGC ran with them.

 

[longcreekridge]

Not if your inverter is grounded to the same breaker panel.

It is grounded to the same panel, so yes everything is grounded together using two rods, spaced 10feet apart (which are also wired together with a buried 10AWG copper wire).

 

[marionw]

What is the Make/Model of the battery and do you have any means of separately monitoring the battery; specifically can you view the cells and their voltages to determine the correct/actual SOC (if in fact the batteries are getting fully charged..

Are you operating in open or closed loop. Keep in mind that SOC as reported by the battery or as determined by the Inverter will be wildly inaccurate if from time to time you do not fully charge the batteries to the point you get cell balancing.

 

[TM48]

It is grounded to the same panel, so yes everything is grounded together using two rods, spaced 10feet apart (which are also wired together with a buried 10AWG copper wire).

The EGC from the load center to the twin ground rods should be continuous solid copper #6 or greater. The local standard is #4.

 

[longcreekridge]

The EGC from the load center to the twin ground rods should be continuous solid copper #6 or greater. The local standard is #4.

Thanks for the correction. My memory was faulty. I did use 6 AWG, but it is not unbroken. The first section runs about 8 ft. to clamp on the first rod. The second section, clamped to the same clamp, runs about 12ft. to the clamp on the second rod.