Need Will's review:

[DerpsyDoodler]

@Will Prowse

Will you review

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/shenzhen-luyuan-did-i-get-what-i-paid-for.27544/

One of your mods is making some very questionable decisions, which in light of, raises concern or suspicion that they may be trying to conceal alleged misdoings of a specific DIYsolar "trusted vendor".

 

[svetz]

That's me making those questionable decisions folks....which anyone looking at the thread can know since I stated pretty clearly why I closed the thread.

The issue was also already bumped to Will & other moderators in a conversation rather than a public forum. Because while saying moderators are doing no-nos is fun and might feel righteous, it doesn't help the viewers have faith in the forums. Moderations need to be above reproach after all. So, up to other moderators to handle this thread.

But, since it's in a public forum, I'll just reiterate that the thread was closed because members can't seem to help but make accusations towards other members such as the attack above (which I can't quote lest I be breaking the rules). I cleaned the thread up last night, deletes and edits, and then did so again this morning (after more reports on it) when I closed it. (btw, I'm not perfect, if you see something that's still disrespectful in that thread (well, any thread really) please report it for review).

Ohhh Nooooo..... Svetz you sleaze mod in bed with those chinese vendors!!!! The horror!! The shock!!! The Shame!!!!

Everybody has the right to have an opinion and liking a vendor doesn't mean you're in bed with them. Suggesting otherwise without proof is an attack on their character. Definitely not a way to make friends or win an argument.

While you can have an opinion, you can't be disrespectful of other members. Doing so gets you points on the forum.

Easy for me to disprove in my case. If you go through every post I've ever written, you'll see I've never said anything good or bad about the vendor. But, my opinion is you buy cheap cells from countries with no consumer protections and you should expect to get screwed.

What I have written constantly about is be MOST EXCELLENT TO YOUR FELLOW Members.

So please, be kind to one another.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

Who called a mod a crook?

 

[Supervstech]

Who called a mod a crook?

Can you quote where this was said?

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

Can you quote where this was said?

It was stated in post #2. I see post #2 has been edited, now. If you would like to see where it was stated, we will have to go through the original post along with all edits of that post, so that we can see where it was said.

 

[svetz]

Can you quote where this was said?

That post has 6 edits (so far) over a wide range of things. Actually, a pretty small number of edits for me. Takes me forever to get a post to say what I want it to say. A crook seemed like an apt title for someone that commits a crime or hides a crime (e.g., it was me calling me a crook). But wanted to lighten the mood so changed it (not before someone saw it though, proof I was right to change it, nobody mentioned the substitution after all). So, verbiage change, but not contextual change (not that one anyway).

Probably easiest to compare rev 1 vs. rev 2 in the history. You'll see the word "no-nos" in paragraph 2 was swapped for "crooks" (along with a number of other changes which hopefully make the post better overall).

(readers will be amused to know this post has 7 edits already ; -)

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

I quite often edit my posts upwards 3 or more times right after I post them.

 

[HRTKD]

Injecting a little levity...



Being a moderator isn't easy, I did it for years. Often it's like working at a daycare. Sometimes it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

With regard to the closed thread, I think the discussion would have been a bit different if the title had been less inflammatory/accusatory and if no vendor name had been mentioned. When I first read the thread, the title immediately set me off. Like it was a front page article from one of the gossip rags. I'm not writing this to be mean, but to say that the way you say things can take a thread off in a completely different direction than was intended.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

Injecting a little levity...

View attachment 62233

Being a moderator isn't easy, I did it for years. Often it's like working at a daycare. Sometimes it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

With regard to the closed thread, I think the discussion would have been a bit different if the title had been less inflammatory/accusatory and if no vendor name had been mentioned. When I first read the thread, the title immediately set me off. Like it was a front page article from one of the gossip rags. I'm not writing this to be mean, but to say that the way you say things can take a thread off in a completely different direction than was intended.

lol @ trickydick

The way a person words things or the way they're interpreted. I didn't interpret his post as offensive. I saw valid questions and someone trying to ask those questions in a fair way, then got railroaded. Regardless of how you like what he said, its the meat of what he said that is important.

His question was "did I get what I paid for?" (as titled)

What he paid for was factory batched and matched.

If the details about the serials he reported are interpreted correctly, it would seem he did not get what he paid for. I wouldnt consider a 1 or 2 yr old cell mixxed with new cells factory matched and batched. if I was expecting a K model, I would question why I received a Y model (or whatever).

Why is he being railroaded by the (levity and shocking realizations hoped for here) diysolar cartel?

?

 

[HRTKD]

I'm not going to rehash much of what was already said in that thread. If you want to, we can continue through a PM.

 

[svetz]

I'm not going to rehash much of what was already said in that thread.

Thank you... the thread reads pretty harmlessly now after being edited and deleting posts but there's no reason to repeat to drag any of the unfounded ugliness back out.

 

[A.Justice]

I get a little bit frustrated when mods go back and edit or delete other people's posts, regardless of the subject matter.

It's nice to know who you are dealing with on a public forum. If posts are deleted, I can't see that users edited and deleted history, and don't know that it's someone I should avoid (or trust).

Watching other people argue can be very informative, or even just entertaining. It's also how ideas are discussed, and just because it gets heated doesn't mean it needs to disappear. It's a public forum, short of blatant trolling, racism, or being completely off topic, who is anyone to decide what I can, or can't read.

Locking a thread is necessary at times. I get that. I don't think that ANY thread should be locked, but I understand the reason why it's done. That being said, if you (anyone reading this, not attacking anyone specifically) don't like what's being discussed, then don't read it. It's irritating when I have something useful or productive to add to the conversation, but it's locked. It's like two people being on a debate stage and one not being given a microphone.

Free speech should be protected. There isn't much of it left anymore.

Just my un-asked-for 2¢.

 

[HRTKD]

I get a little bit frustrated when mods go back and edit or delete other people's posts, regardless of the subject matter.

It's nice to know who you are dealing with on a public forum. If posts are deleted, I can't see that users edited and deleted history, and don't know that it's someone I should avoid (or trust).

Watching other people argue can be very informative, or even just entertaining. It's also how ideas are discussed, and just because it gets heated doesn't mean it needs to disappear. It's a public forum, short of blatant trolling, racism, or being completely off topic, who is anyone to decide what I can, or can't read.

Locking a thread is necessary at times. I get that. I don't think that ANY thread should be locked, but I understand the reason why it's done. That being said, if you (anyone reading this, not attacking anyone specifically) don't like what's being discussed, then don't read it. It's irritating when I have something useful or productive to add to the conversation, but it's locked. It's like two people being on a debate stage and one not being given a microphone.

Free speech should be protected. There isn't much of it left anymore.

Just my un-asked-for 2¢.

I have occasional libertarian leanings, but they are often tempered by reality. People aren't going to join or trust the forum if the first thing they see from a Google search is a bunch of bickering.

On the issue of deleting posts, one thing we (the moderators, of which I was one) did on another site is left the offensive/controversial/whatever post in place but replaced the body of the post with, "The content of this post has been moderated due to _______." It lets everyone know that action from the moderators has taken place. Sometimes that alone was enough to shame the offender to apologize before the thread got any further out of hand and had to be locked or, even worse, deleted altogether.

 

[svetz]

... People aren't going to join or trust the forum if the first thing they see from a Google search is a bunch of bickering....

I think bickering is okay. But character assassinations (or worse) are not. As has been said many times, you can attack the idea, but not the person.

...before the thread got any further out of hand and had to be locked or, even worse, deleted altogether...

It would help if we had more moderators and could address these things faster/earlier. In this case each side reported the other, but only after it had escalated out of control. Not hard to find good people, hard to find good people willing to suffer the BS that comes with it. Imagine getting accused rather than being thanked for your hard work? Imagine what it would be like without moderators?

I get a little bit frustrated when mods go back and edit or delete other people's posts, regardless of the subject matter.

Imagine the life of a moderator, no one wants to have to do that.
Fortunately, there's a full history so Will can see all the edits anyone made and see all the deleted posts.
Feel confident that if there's any hint of the accusation being correct that Mr. Prowse will take the appropriate actions.

.... don't know that it's someone I should avoid (or trust).

Never trust anyone with anything important to you online.
Even if they were 100% trustworthy, someone could have hacked their account and you might not even be dealing with them.

I would hope that everyone not judge me by my overall posts/character, rather that you judge each on its own merit. After all, I might be right on some things, but I could always be wrong too.

Watching other people argue can be very informative,

Arguing technical information is fine. You'll see in that thread there is some very heated debate going on.
What's not there and not fine are disrespectful things that should never have been said.

It's also how ideas are discussed

Again, not deleting or editing conversation on ideas or viewpoints, just the crap. That is, the ideas are still discussed and flow.

It's a public forum

Not a public forum really, see the T&Cs regarding being a member.

short of blatant trolling, racism, or being completely off topic, who is anyone to decide what I can, or can't read.

Your moderators are. You trust them or you don't. If you don't, let Will know (preferable privately) so he can get rid of them.

That being said, if you (anyone reading this, not attacking anyone specifically) don't like what's being discussed, then don't read it.

The thread wasn't locked because of the technical content, as the post says it was locked because the issue so inflamed members that they couldn't control themselves. Both sides were reporting the other as trolling, disrespectful, etc.

It's irritating when I have something useful or productive to add to the conversation, but it's locked.

I hear you. But your freedoms have to be weighed against the hurt caused to other members.

It's like two people being on a debate stage and one not being given a microphone.

No, it's like going through the Nixon tapes and bleeping out all of the cuss words. There were plenty of people that abused the microphone and plenty of opinions were offered.

I cleaned the thread up the previous day and issued warnings. The next day some of the same folks were right back at it.

Not all of them. Some obviously took the warnings to heart and probably felt remorseful; kudos to them.
I know it's easy to get caught up in a moment.

Some were probably pissed about the warning points they received; after all, from that video you can pretty much always expect nearly everyone to think they are both right and justified. There was even one case where I felt bad about the warning point I issued because the person had been attacked fairly savagely but felt I had to as they had unfortunately retaliated in kind (and I asked both Will and another mod to review the thread about possibly undoing some of those points long before someone else did).

It's not about silencing the issue as some would have you believe (e.g., the incredibly rude and thoughtless DIY Solar Cartel just above given how much Will and the community at large has committed to these forums), it's not even about being kind to one another. It's about not being rude to one another and having civilized conversations people want to partake in. If you have something you must say, then start a new thread on it. I hope it goes better for you.

Free speech should be protected. There isn't much of it left anymore.

Freedoms require a certain level of responsibility, for example yelling "FIRE" in a crowded auditorium.
People violated that trust in that thread and you only see the technical arguments in it now because of a moderator.

Just my un-asked-for 2¢.

Always appreciate feedback and information.

 

[Supervstech]

I will second the issue.

arguments on a forum over the topic related to wiring or solar etc can be on the forum.

at some point a consensus needs to be met. Arguing because you want to power your house with a 100W solar panel and a battery out of your car, with a 10,000W 240V split phase inverter running your electric water heater, air conditioner, and all the lights, plus running a fleet of Bitcoin miners is going to be argued against. If you keep arguing how it should work, and start calling the people helping to explain why it won’t work derogatory names, and implying working for the man to keep the thinkers under boot, will get edited… and likely have you banned from forum participation.
This forum is about solar DIY assistance.

It is not a place to banter back and fourth the merits of the moon landing conspiracy or whatever you feel like discussing.
It is not a place where a member can insult ANY other member.
It is not a place where constant bickering against a member will be tolerated.

We mods don’t get paid, we don’t have any special knowledge, our opinions on topics are rarely the last word, and we should not be looked on as dictators of public thought.

We just help out here when advertisers try to spam junk on the forum, we help edit out arguments, and inform the offender of the way it needs to be discussed on this forum.

If you need a political or whatever venue to argue the latest rant that strikes your fancy, this is not the forum for you. There are millions of places online where that can be done. Take those arguments there.

Here we discuss solar power related topics, and assist those requesting it.

That’s it.

There is a subforum where other topics can be discussed If they are discussed in a pleasant manner, they can remain, but even there, there should be some semblance of relationship to the solar community.

 

[curiouscarbon]

Two levels of “deletion” would be nice.

1) Thread flow deletion, more like de-emphasizing. Grayed out text or collapsed text, single click restores post.

2) Real deletion for overtly harmful content.

Like @HRTKD said. Having a softer stick than total oblivion can smooth out the bumps on the road.

I don’t know if this forum software even supports this feature.

 

[svetz]

Like @HRTKD said. Having a softer stick than total oblivion can smooth out the bumps on the road.

This thread isn't the place to discuss how moderator's should correct bad behavior, it's off-topic.

This thread is about one specific moderator (i.e., me) being in league with vendors and misusing their authority to selectively edit, delete posts, and stop the discussion for remuneration.

If you want to educate moderators on how to better do a better job, there is a forum for that, see Complaint Corner.

But, since we're there....
Moderators shouldn't have to take any actions. Stop and think about that for a second. If everyone was just adult enough to follow the terms & conditions they agreed to there wouldn't be a need for moderators. Almost everyone manages to follow the T&Cs amazingly well even with provocation. So who are the outliers on the bell curve and what's going to work best for them?

The problem with the HRTKD approach, as I see it, is it disrupts the thread and brings attention to the wrong-doing. It shames the person as HRTKD says. With people that want to belong to the community that can work. But for people that want to belong, just getting a quick note that says why what they did is wrong also works. That technique also doesn't distract from the thread and take it farther off course as others comment on it.

But people that accuse people of things, and then accuse the moderator when called on it, and then call the forums the DIY Cartel even jokingly?
Well, I start to think they don't love the forums and are too much of a hothead to be here. That nothing will work with them. We want to save everyone, but the truth is some just don't deserve the right to participate.

But I could be wrong. Will gives his moderators a lot of latitude and we try our very best. As I said earlier, we could use more moderators and existing moderators will certainly copy successful techniques proven to work. Those interested should email Will with their credentials.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

This thread isn't the place to discuss how moderator's should correct bad behavior, it's off-topic.

This thread is about one specific moderator (i.e., me) being in league with vendors and misusing their authority to selectively edit, delete posts, and stop the discussion for remuneration.

If you want to educate moderators on how to better do a better job, there is a forum for that, see Complaint Corner.

But, since we're there....
Moderators shouldn't have to take any actions. Stop and think about that for a second. If everyone was just adult enough to follow the terms & conditions they agreed to there wouldn't be a need for moderators. Almost everyone manages to follow the T&Cs amazingly well even with provocation. So who are the outliers on the bell curve and what's going to work best for them?

The problem with the HRTKD approach, as I see it, is it disrupts the thread and brings attention to the wrong-doing. It shames the person as HRTKD says. With people that want to belong to the community that can work. But for people that want to belong, just getting a quick note that says why what they did is wrong also works. That technique also doesn't distract from the thread and take it farther off course as others comment on it.

But people that accuse people of things, and then accuse the moderator when called on it, and then call the forums the DIY Cartel even jokingly?
Well, I start to think they don't love the forums and are too much of a hothead to be here. That nothing will work with them. We want to save everyone, but the truth is some just don't deserve the right to participate.

But I could be wrong. Will gives his moderators a lot of latitude and we try our very best. As I said earlier, we could use more moderators and existing moderators will certainly copy successful techniques proven to work. Those interested should email Will with their credentials.

Excuse me? It sounds to me like you're saying if i do anything "the cartel" doesn't like, it's ok for "the cartel" to troll me and disrupt the forum (and that I should get the blame for it)?

Is that what you're saying? Because that's exactly what it sounds like. And as the picture unfolds, exactly what it looks like. I could point out a few (and in fact have already done so using the report button).

Would you like to clarify your inflammatory statements?

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

It's clear to me there's no resolution between you and I, svetz. I'll try to refrain from responding to you on this topic anymore. Inflammatory remarks not-withstanding.

 

[svetz]

Excuse me? It sounds to me like you're saying if i do anything "the cartel" doesn't like, it's ok for "the cartel" to troll me and disrupt the forum (and that I should get the blame for it)?

If you think someone is breaking the T&Cs your recourse is to report it.
Breaking the T&Cs yourself is what causes problems. Once you do that, you're no longer the victim, but equally guilty.
Making accusations against someone is not something anyone should take lightly.

In regards to this thread. Eventually, Mr. Prowse will investigate the matter of my being a shill and abusing my authority. Rest assured he will take the actions he feels appropriate.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

If you think someone is breaking the T&Cs your recourse is to report it.
Breaking the T&Cs yourself is what causes problems. Once you do that, you're no longer the victim, but equally guilty.

In regards to this thread. Eventually, Mr. Prowse will investigate the matter of my being a shill and abusing my authority. Rest assured he will take the actions he feels appropriate.

Wonderful.

 

[curiouscarbon]

This thread isn't the place to discuss how moderator's should correct bad behavior, it's off-topic.

fair enough, i kinda digress into general discussion

This thread is about one specific moderator (i.e., me) being in league with vendors and misusing their authority to selectively edit, delete posts, and stop the discussion for remuneration.

i think svetz is a valuable mod who exercises good judgement from what i’ve observed..

“being in league with vendors” sounds far fetched to me. i definitely think svetz wants to call out bad vendor behavior as much as anyone here.

people don’t see each other’s faces here and either way people sometimes forget there are people sitting on the other side of the computer screen somewhere who read the messages. it happens to most of us at least once a year. maybe more likely when hungry or tired.. or not had coffee yet.

i’m grateful that there are people taking time out of their day to facilitate this forum to remain civil enough to keep the awesome conversations flowing.

from what i can tell, the person was really upset because they said matched but didn’t clarify what exact level of matching?

there was another user who had some awful experience ordering a ton of cells and they spammed the entire forum about it and i totally empathize with them but it got to the point of derailing random threads.

anyways my point is that i think svetz is generally cool and i’m totally not complaining about anyone wanting assurance that the moderation is for a wholesome cause.

i do think people could be more excellent to each other here, though.. times are really tough and lead times are up and prices of various stuff is up, every bit of kindness on the forum can really keep things moving.

/unsolicited viewpoint

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

fair enough, i kinda digress into general discussion

i think svetz is a valuable mod who exercises good judgement from what i’ve observed..

“being in league with vendors” sounds far fetched to me. i definitely think svetz wants to call out bad vendor behavior as much as anyone here.

people don’t see each other’s faces here and either way people sometimes forget there are people sitting on the other side of the computer screen somewhere who read the messages. it happens to most of us at least once a year. maybe more likely when hungry or tired.. or not had coffee yet.

i’m grateful that there are people taking time out of their day to facilitate this forum to remain civil enough to keep the awesome conversations flowing.

from what i can tell, the person was really upset because they said matched but didn’t clarify what exact level of matching?

there was another user who had some awful experience ordering a ton of cells and they spammed the entire forum about it and i totally empathize with them but it got to the point of derailing random threads.

anyways my point is that i think svetz is generally cool and i’m totally not complaining about anyone wanting assurance that the moderation is for a wholesome cause.

i do think people could be more excellent to each other here, though.. times are really tough and lead times are up and prices of various stuff is up, every bit of kindness on the forum can really keep things moving.

/unsolicited viewpoint

/welcomed viewpoint

To make sure transparency is had, i never said svetz was "in league with vendors." I said he was making questionable decisions (with regards to a specific thread) which shined a questionable light on his integrity. I stand by what I said. Not my fault he chose to blow it out of proportion, in order to try and make it something it isn't. why? i don't know. Would you like me to speculate? I have a few plausible possibilities.

As for svetz being a good mod. That may or may not be accurate. I disagree (based on my recent experience).

Mods have to be held to a higher standard (like it or not). Would I make a good mod? lmao....I'm forward and unfiltered, and I won't give those traits up for anything. I can (and do) restrain them. Usually when I unrestrain it's a conscious decision and not one driven by emotion. That's not to say I am perfect, because I am not. No doubt there are plenty
who can relate.

That's not to say I've never been a mod. Been there, done that.

As for the little diysolar cartel/clique/anon-troll-briggade...(whatever you want to call it), I am curious as to what will be done about that. It does exist, and the existence of this thread is proof of it.

I think part of the problem is some members get a little big in the head becuase they seem like gods to the laymen who want to DIY. They contribute (perhaps started contributing) out of a desire to give back to the community and be helpful. As others who join do. But as time goes by, it seems some think they should have a lock/monopoly on commenting/discussing or on opinions. Perhaps they think their viewpoints are the only ones that matter
or the only ones that deserve weight. Regardless, the second you start throwing your helpful assistance into people's faces, it might be time to check yourself and re-ask yourself why you're doing it. Is it still for the right reasons?

I don't care who you are, you don't have to like me, but you will show me the same respect that you expect. If you can't do that, don't cry foul. Keep trying to set "traps" though. As I uncover them I'll report them. Eventually a trail will lead somewhere.

 

[curiouscarbon]

All I know is that I really like visiting this forum but the thought of being responsible for moderating it gives me the heebie jeebies, the task is itself of choosing when to change or delete other people’s posts. Important task, but it make my brain hurt.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

All I know is that I really like visiting this forum but the thought of being responsible for moderating it gives me the heebie jeebies, the task is itself of choosing when to change or delete other people’s posts. Important task, but it make my brain hurt.

There's a simple solution. Don't change people's
posts.

Delete is a powerful tool that can be used wisely.

Redacting is also a possibility. IIRC (been a long time) CSS has a bg_text attribute.

This could cover the offending text giving people a choice whether to read or not. A simple highlight can expose it. I've also seen you mention other tactics, somewhere.