Need Will's review:

svetz

Works in theory! Practice? That's something else
That's me making those questionable decisions folks....which anyone looking at the thread can know since I stated pretty clearly why I closed the thread.

The issue was also already bumped to Will & other moderators in a conversation rather than a public forum. Because while saying moderators are doing no-nos is fun and might feel righteous, it doesn't help the viewers have faith in the forums. Moderations need to be above reproach after all. So, up to other moderators to handle this thread.

But, since it's in a public forum, I'll just reiterate that the thread was closed because members can't seem to help but make accusations towards other members such as the attack above (which I can't quote lest I be breaking the rules). I cleaned the thread up last night, deletes and edits, and then did so again this morning (after more reports on it) when I closed it. (btw, I'm not perfect, if you see something that's still disrespectful in that thread (well, any thread really) please report it for review).

Ohhh Nooooo..... Svetz you sleaze mod in bed with those chinese vendors!!!! The horror!! The shock!!! The Shame!!!!

Everybody has the right to have an opinion and liking a vendor doesn't mean you're in bed with them. Suggesting otherwise without proof is an attack on their character. Definitely not a way to make friends or win an argument.

While you can have an opinion, you can't be disrespectful of other members. Doing so gets you points on the forum.

Easy for me to disprove in my case. If you go through every post I've ever written, you'll see I've never said anything good or bad about the vendor. But, my opinion is you buy cheap cells from countries with no consumer protections and you should expect to get screwed.

What I have written constantly about is be MOST EXCELLENT TO YOUR FELLOW Members.

DngV74HW0AA27bv.jpg


So please, be kind to one another.
 
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DerpsyDoodler

Photon Sorcerer
Can you quote where this was said?
It was stated in post #2. I see post #2 has been edited, now. If you would like to see where it was stated, we will have to go through the original post along with all edits of that post, so that we can see where it was said.
 

svetz

Works in theory! Practice? That's something else
Can you quote where this was said?

That post has 6 edits (so far) over a wide range of things. Actually, a pretty small number of edits for me. Takes me forever to get a post to say what I want it to say. A crook seemed like an apt title for someone that commits a crime or hides a crime (e.g., it was me calling me a crook). But wanted to lighten the mood so changed it (not before someone saw it though, proof I was right to change it, nobody mentioned the substitution after all). So, verbiage change, but not contextual change (not that one anyway).

Probably easiest to compare rev 1 vs. rev 2 in the history. You'll see the word "no-nos" in paragraph 2 was swapped for "crooks" (along with a number of other changes which hopefully make the post better overall).

(readers will be amused to know this post has 7 edits already ; -)
 
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HRTKD

Boondocker
Injecting a little levity...

1630337149242.png

Being a moderator isn't easy, I did it for years. Often it's like working at a daycare. Sometimes it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

With regard to the closed thread, I think the discussion would have been a bit different if the title had been less inflammatory/accusatory and if no vendor name had been mentioned. When I first read the thread, the title immediately set me off. Like it was a front page article from one of the gossip rags. I'm not writing this to be mean, but to say that the way you say things can take a thread off in a completely different direction than was intended.
 

DerpsyDoodler

Photon Sorcerer
Injecting a little levity...

View attachment 62233

Being a moderator isn't easy, I did it for years. Often it's like working at a daycare. Sometimes it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

With regard to the closed thread, I think the discussion would have been a bit different if the title had been less inflammatory/accusatory and if no vendor name had been mentioned. When I first read the thread, the title immediately set me off. Like it was a front page article from one of the gossip rags. I'm not writing this to be mean, but to say that the way you say things can take a thread off in a completely different direction than was intended.
lol @ trickydick

The way a person words things or the way they're interpreted. I didn't interpret his post as offensive. I saw valid questions and someone trying to ask those questions in a fair way, then got railroaded. Regardless of how you like what he said, its the meat of what he said that is important.

His question was "did I get what I paid for?" (as titled)

What he paid for was factory batched and matched.

If the details about the serials he reported are interpreted correctly, it would seem he did not get what he paid for. I wouldnt consider a 1 or 2 yr old cell mixxed with new cells factory matched and batched. if I was expecting a K model, I would question why I received a Y model (or whatever).

Why is he being railroaded by the (levity and shocking realizations hoped for here) diysolar cartel?

😬
 

HRTKD

Boondocker
I'm not going to rehash much of what was already said in that thread. If you want to, we can continue through a PM.
 

svetz

Works in theory! Practice? That's something else
I'm not going to rehash much of what was already said in that thread.
Thank you... the thread reads pretty harmlessly now after being edited and deleting posts but there's no reason to repeat to drag any of the unfounded ugliness back out.
 

A.Justice

Swears he didn't start that fire.
I get a little bit frustrated when mods go back and edit or delete other people's posts, regardless of the subject matter.

It's nice to know who you are dealing with on a public forum. If posts are deleted, I can't see that users edited and deleted history, and don't know that it's someone I should avoid (or trust).

Watching other people argue can be very informative, or even just entertaining. It's also how ideas are discussed, and just because it gets heated doesn't mean it needs to disappear. It's a public forum, short of blatant trolling, racism, or being completely off topic, who is anyone to decide what I can, or can't read.

Locking a thread is necessary at times. I get that. I don't think that ANY thread should be locked, but I understand the reason why it's done. That being said, if you (anyone reading this, not attacking anyone specifically) don't like what's being discussed, then don't read it. It's irritating when I have something useful or productive to add to the conversation, but it's locked. It's like two people being on a debate stage and one not being given a microphone.

Free speech should be protected. There isn't much of it left anymore.

Just my un-asked-for 2¢.
 

HRTKD

Boondocker
I get a little bit frustrated when mods go back and edit or delete other people's posts, regardless of the subject matter.

It's nice to know who you are dealing with on a public forum. If posts are deleted, I can't see that users edited and deleted history, and don't know that it's someone I should avoid (or trust).

Watching other people argue can be very informative, or even just entertaining. It's also how ideas are discussed, and just because it gets heated doesn't mean it needs to disappear. It's a public forum, short of blatant trolling, racism, or being completely off topic, who is anyone to decide what I can, or can't read.

Locking a thread is necessary at times. I get that. I don't think that ANY thread should be locked, but I understand the reason why it's done. That being said, if you (anyone reading this, not attacking anyone specifically) don't like what's being discussed, then don't read it. It's irritating when I have something useful or productive to add to the conversation, but it's locked. It's like two people being on a debate stage and one not being given a microphone.

Free speech should be protected. There isn't much of it left anymore.

Just my un-asked-for 2¢.

I have occasional libertarian leanings, but they are often tempered by reality. People aren't going to join or trust the forum if the first thing they see from a Google search is a bunch of bickering.

On the issue of deleting posts, one thing we (the moderators, of which I was one) did on another site is left the offensive/controversial/whatever post in place but replaced the body of the post with, "The content of this post has been moderated due to _______." It lets everyone know that action from the moderators has taken place. Sometimes that alone was enough to shame the offender to apologize before the thread got any further out of hand and had to be locked or, even worse, deleted altogether.
 
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svetz

Works in theory! Practice? That's something else
... People aren't going to join or trust the forum if the first thing they see from a Google search is a bunch of bickering....
I think bickering is okay. But character assassinations (or worse) are not. As has been said many times, you can attack the idea, but not the person.

...before the thread got any further out of hand and had to be locked or, even worse, deleted altogether...
It would help if we had more moderators and could address these things faster/earlier. In this case each side reported the other, but only after it had escalated out of control. Not hard to find good people, hard to find good people willing to suffer the BS that comes with it. Imagine getting accused rather than being thanked for your hard work? Imagine what it would be like without moderators?

I get a little bit frustrated when mods go back and edit or delete other people's posts, regardless of the subject matter.
Imagine the life of a moderator, no one wants to have to do that.
Fortunately, there's a full history so Will can see all the edits anyone made and see all the deleted posts.
Feel confident that if there's any hint of the accusation being correct that Mr. Prowse will take the appropriate actions.

.... don't know that it's someone I should avoid (or trust).
Never trust anyone with anything important to you online.
Even if they were 100% trustworthy, someone could have hacked their account and you might not even be dealing with them.

I would hope that everyone not judge me by my overall posts/character, rather that you judge each on its own merit. After all, I might be right on some things, but I could always be wrong too.

Watching other people argue can be very informative,
Arguing technical information is fine. You'll see in that thread there is some very heated debate going on.
What's not there and not fine are disrespectful things that should never have been said.

It's also how ideas are discussed
Again, not deleting or editing conversation on ideas or viewpoints, just the crap. That is, the ideas are still discussed and flow.

It's a public forum
Not a public forum really, see the T&Cs regarding being a member.

short of blatant trolling, racism, or being completely off topic, who is anyone to decide what I can, or can't read.
Your moderators are. You trust them or you don't. If you don't, let Will know (preferable privately) so he can get rid of them.

That being said, if you (anyone reading this, not attacking anyone specifically) don't like what's being discussed, then don't read it.
The thread wasn't locked because of the technical content, as the post says it was locked because the issue so inflamed members that they couldn't control themselves. Both sides were reporting the other as trolling, disrespectful, etc.

It's irritating when I have something useful or productive to add to the conversation, but it's locked.
I hear you. But your freedoms have to be weighed against the hurt caused to other members.

It's like two people being on a debate stage and one not being given a microphone.
No, it's like going through the Nixon tapes and bleeping out all of the cuss words. There were plenty of people that abused the microphone and plenty of opinions were offered.

I cleaned the thread up the previous day and issued warnings. The next day some of the same folks were right back at it.

Not all of them. Some obviously took the warnings to heart and probably felt remorseful; kudos to them.
I know it's easy to get caught up in a moment.

Some were probably pissed about the warning points they received; after all, from that video you can pretty much always expect nearly everyone to think they are both right and justified. There was even one case where I felt bad about the warning point I issued because the person had been attacked fairly savagely but felt I had to as they had unfortunately retaliated in kind (and I asked both Will and another mod to review the thread about possibly undoing some of those points long before someone else did).

It's not about silencing the issue as some would have you believe (e.g., the incredibly rude and thoughtless DIY Solar Cartel just above given how much Will and the community at large has committed to these forums), it's not even about being kind to one another. It's about not being rude to one another and having civilized conversations people want to partake in. If you have something you must say, then start a new thread on it. I hope it goes better for you.

Free speech should be protected. There isn't much of it left anymore.
Freedoms require a certain level of responsibility, for example yelling "FIRE" in a crowded auditorium.
People violated that trust in that thread and you only see the technical arguments in it now because of a moderator.

Just my un-asked-for 2¢.
Always appreciate feedback and information.
 
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Supervstech

Administrator
Staff member
Moderator
I will second the issue.

arguments on a forum over the topic related to wiring or solar etc can be on the forum.

at some point a consensus needs to be met. Arguing because you want to power your house with a 100W solar panel and a battery out of your car, with a 10,000W 240V split phase inverter running your electric water heater, air conditioner, and all the lights, plus running a fleet of Bitcoin miners is going to be argued against. If you keep arguing how it should work, and start calling the people helping to explain why it won’t work derogatory names, and implying working for the man to keep the thinkers under boot, will get edited… and likely have you banned from forum participation.
This forum is about solar DIY assistance.

It is not a place to banter back and fourth the merits of the moon landing conspiracy or whatever you feel like discussing.
It is not a place where a member can insult ANY other member.
It is not a place where constant bickering against a member will be tolerated.

We mods don’t get paid, we don’t have any special knowledge, our opinions on topics are rarely the last word, and we should not be looked on as dictators of public thought.

We just help out here when advertisers try to spam junk on the forum, we help edit out arguments, and inform the offender of the way it needs to be discussed on this forum.

If you need a political or whatever venue to argue the latest rant that strikes your fancy, this is not the forum for you. There are millions of places online where that can be done. Take those arguments there.

Here we discuss solar power related topics, and assist those requesting it.

That’s it.

There is a subforum where other topics can be discussed If they are discussed in a pleasant manner, they can remain, but even there, there should be some semblance of relationship to the solar community.
 

curiouscarbon

Science Penguin
Two levels of “deletion” would be nice.

1) Thread flow deletion, more like de-emphasizing. Grayed out text or collapsed text, single click restores post.

2) Real deletion for overtly harmful content.

Like @HRTKD said. Having a softer stick than total oblivion can smooth out the bumps on the road.

I don’t know if this forum software even supports this feature.
 

svetz

Works in theory! Practice? That's something else
Like @HRTKD said. Having a softer stick than total oblivion can smooth out the bumps on the road.
This thread isn't the place to discuss how moderator's should correct bad behavior, it's off-topic.

This thread is about one specific moderator (i.e., me) being in league with vendors and misusing their authority to selectively edit, delete posts, and stop the discussion for remuneration.

If you want to educate moderators on how to better do a better job, there is a forum for that, see Complaint Corner.

But, since we're there....
Moderators shouldn't have to take any actions. Stop and think about that for a second. If everyone was just adult enough to follow the terms & conditions they agreed to there wouldn't be a need for moderators. Almost everyone manages to follow the T&Cs amazingly well even with provocation. So who are the outliers on the bell curve and what's going to work best for them?

The problem with the HRTKD approach, as I see it, is it disrupts the thread and brings attention to the wrong-doing. It shames the person as HRTKD says. With people that want to belong to the community that can work. But for people that want to belong, just getting a quick note that says why what they did is wrong also works. That technique also doesn't distract from the thread and take it farther off course as others comment on it.

But people that accuse people of things, and then accuse the moderator when called on it, and then call the forums the DIY Cartel even jokingly?
Well, I start to think they don't love the forums and are too much of a hothead to be here. That nothing will work with them. We want to save everyone, but the truth is some just don't deserve the right to participate.

But I could be wrong. Will gives his moderators a lot of latitude and we try our very best. As I said earlier, we could use more moderators and existing moderators will certainly copy successful techniques proven to work. Those interested should email Will with their credentials.
 
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DerpsyDoodler

Photon Sorcerer
This thread isn't the place to discuss how moderator's should correct bad behavior, it's off-topic.

This thread is about one specific moderator (i.e., me) being in league with vendors and misusing their authority to selectively edit, delete posts, and stop the discussion for remuneration.

If you want to educate moderators on how to better do a better job, there is a forum for that, see Complaint Corner.

But, since we're there....
Moderators shouldn't have to take any actions. Stop and think about that for a second. If everyone was just adult enough to follow the terms & conditions they agreed to there wouldn't be a need for moderators. Almost everyone manages to follow the T&Cs amazingly well even with provocation. So who are the outliers on the bell curve and what's going to work best for them?

The problem with the HRTKD approach, as I see it, is it disrupts the thread and brings attention to the wrong-doing. It shames the person as HRTKD says. With people that want to belong to the community that can work. But for people that want to belong, just getting a quick note that says why what they did is wrong also works. That technique also doesn't distract from the thread and take it farther off course as others comment on it.

But people that accuse people of things, and then accuse the moderator when called on it, and then call the forums the DIY Cartel even jokingly?
Well, I start to think they don't love the forums and are too much of a hothead to be here. That nothing will work with them. We want to save everyone, but the truth is some just don't deserve the right to participate.

But I could be wrong. Will gives his moderators a lot of latitude and we try our very best. As I said earlier, we could use more moderators and existing moderators will certainly copy successful techniques proven to work. Those interested should email Will with their credentials.
Excuse me? It sounds to me like you're saying if i do anything "the cartel" doesn't like, it's ok for "the cartel" to troll me and disrupt the forum (and that I should get the blame for it)?

Is that what you're saying? Because that's exactly what it sounds like. And as the picture unfolds, exactly what it looks like. I could point out a few (and in fact have already done so using the report button).

Would you like to clarify your inflammatory statements?
 
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DerpsyDoodler

Photon Sorcerer
It's clear to me there's no resolution between you and I, svetz. I'll try to refrain from responding to you on this topic anymore. Inflammatory remarks not-withstanding.
 

svetz

Works in theory! Practice? That's something else
Excuse me? It sounds to me like you're saying if i do anything "the cartel" doesn't like, it's ok for "the cartel" to troll me and disrupt the forum (and that I should get the blame for it)?
If you think someone is breaking the T&Cs your recourse is to report it.
Breaking the T&Cs yourself is what causes problems. Once you do that, you're no longer the victim, but equally guilty.
Making accusations against someone is not something anyone should take lightly.

In regards to this thread. Eventually, Mr. Prowse will investigate the matter of my being a shill and abusing my authority. Rest assured he will take the actions he feels appropriate.
 
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