Need Will's review:

[Supervstech]

There's a simple solution. Don't change people's
posts.

Delete is a powerful tool that can be used wisely.

Redacting is also a possibility. IIRC (been a long time) CSS has a bg_text attribute.

This would cover the offending text giving people a choice whether to read or not. A simple highlight can expose it. I've also seen you mention other tactics, somewhere.

I don’t think mods change posts… they should only delete derogatory parts, or the entire post.

Feel free to report any posts you or anyone thinks were changed, and I or another admin can pull up the original post, and confirm. It’s indelible. The forum saves everything.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

I'm all about trying to help make the mods' jobs easier.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

I don’t think mods change posts… they should only delete derogatory parts, or the entire post.

Feel free to report any posts you or anyone thinks were changed, and I or another admin can pull up the original post, and confirm. It’s indelible. The forum saves everything.

I'm not saying this to be argumentative, I'm saying it because it matters: deleting part of a post is changing that post.

and...it causes this circular discussion.

 

[Mallory 015]

That's me making those questionable decisions folks....which anyone looking at the thread can know since I stated pretty clearly why I closed the thread.

The issue was also already bumped to Will & other moderators in a conversation rather than a public forum. Because while saying moderators are doing no-nos is fun and might feel righteous, it doesn't help the viewers have faith in the forums. Moderations need to be above reproach after all. So, up to other moderators to handle this thread.

But, since it's in a public forum, I'll just reiterate that the thread was closed because members can't seem to help but make accusations towards other members such as the attack above (which I can't quote lest I be breaking the rules). I cleaned the thread up last night, deletes and edits, and then did so again this morning (after more reports on it) when I closed it. (btw, I'm not perfect, if you see something that's still disrespectful in that thread (well, any thread really) please report it for review).

Ohhh Nooooo..... Svetz you sleaze mod in bed with those chinese vendors!!!! The horror!! The shock!!! The Shame!!!!

Everybody has the right to have an opinion and liking a vendor doesn't mean you're in bed with them. Suggesting otherwise without proof is an attack on their character. Definitely not a way to make friends or win an argument.

While you can have an opinion, you can't be disrespectful of other members. Doing so gets you points on the forum.

Easy for me to disprove in my case. If you go through every post I've ever written, you'll see I've never said anything good or bad about the vendor. But, my opinion is you buy cheap cells from countries with no consumer protections and you should expect to get screwed.

What I have written constantly about is be MOST EXCELLENT TO YOUR FELLOW Members.

So please, be kind to one another.

Well said.

 

[Bob B]

Much of the discussion in that thread has moved to another thread ..... So far, it has remained fairly civil and I hope it will stay that way.
Amy has answered the concerns of HighVolt who was the OP of the thread in question ... and also to MrPhoton who started the other thread.
To HighVolt, she told him that his cells were within 2% of each other in capacity and were all over 289 AH .... which is their standard and EVE's standard for grade A cells.
It looks like Amy is going a good job of diffusing the concerns ...... below is one snippet directed to HighVolt who was the OP in the thread in question.

To @DerpsyDoodler ... I do understand that your concern for the OP was that .... he didn't get what he paid for .... Amy is indicating that he did get what he paid for ... had already messaged him about it ... and is assuring that if anyone didn't receive what they paid for it will be taken care of.

The outcome of MrPhoton's complaint is yet to be determined pending delivery of his cells which should arrive in the next couple of weeks.

For my part in the thread that go shut down and edited .... I apologize for responding with anger. Sometimes I don't handle it as I should when I am being called names.

I'm not posting the link to the other thread here, but it can be easily found.

 

[Bob B]

My concern for the thread that was shut down is that now Amy will not have a chance to post her response to the OP who brought her reputation into question.
People who do a search, will find that thread and very possibly have the wrong impression of the facts .... and Amy's reputation may be harmed.

 

[ereams65]

End of the day Amy has her own thread to air any of those discussions.

I think about 90% of the issues popping up in any online forum is vernacular driven. We know that we tend to read in the vernacular of our particular mood and it’s why most people would be doing a service to themselves and others if they self-edit. It’s the drawback to virtual interaction; we lose the ability to a)get to know the speaker and more importantly, b)see their eyes and facial expressions to add context to what they’re trying to say. Not sure it’s a ‘solve-able’ problem

 

[Bob B]

End of the day Amy has her own thread to air any of those discussions.

The problem will be if someone does a search and finds that thread .... which is now closed to further posting. Are those people going to find a comment about that thread on a completely different thread? Not likely.

Visualize that that thread challenged your reputation .... and by the time you found it it was closed to further posting.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

The problem will be if someone does a search and finds that thread .... which is now closed to further posting. Are those people going to find a comment about that thread on a completely different thread? Not likely.

Visualize that that thread challenged your reputation .... and by the time you found it it was closed to further posting.

Well the great thing about digital as opposed to chiseled stone, is that it can all be easily cleared up. Perhaps with the good graces of OP, said thread (assuming agreeable outcome) can simply be deleted or somehow marked as resolved.

It seems like amy is trying to work through it, which is not surprising to me. Regardless of what she said about the model differences, I still want to hear/see that information directly from EVE. Not that I don't trust >her<. let's just be honest, a lot of misinformation tends to get passed down from/through/by vendors (whether problems in translation, looking for any answer to give, or outright lying).

Maybe the final info on the serial codes can go in a sticky/resource thread for anyone's reference moving forward.

If I can help it, I won't comment any more about that fiasco of a thread.

I believe apologies should be sincere. I can't say that would be the case from me at this point in time, so I'll just leave it as is. It's been the equivalent of en emotional roller coaster. That leaves me wondering what the $&@# im feeling myself let alone trying to apologize to anyone else and mean it.

 

[Will Prowse]

I have not had a chance to read all of these messages, or the reports. I see the notifications. Haven't had a single spare minute in a week. Just let the smoke out of an active balance board (I still hate them), and I am trying to figure out what went wrong. Will be back to look over the responses in due time.

 

[Will Prowse]

I am back. I think the thread should not have been locked unless it got really out of control. It seemed like they had reason to be mad. I get accused to being a shill for every company on the planet, so I understand how much it can piss one off. But I do like being able to respond in a public forum to stand my ground. If someone is accusing a mod of being something they are not, they should hold their ground and allow for discussion back. If someone is simply screaming or threatening for no reason at all, I could understand why a thread should be locked. Especially about political topics or inappropriate topics.

But that is my opinion. Each mod has different styles of moderation. I like the "hands off" approach, and I only act when someone says something truly awful. But this is subjective.

Hmm, looks like the new thread allows amy to respond. And it seems like the other members are aware of this new thread. Personally, I would have not locked the thread, even if there are personal attacks against me. I would respond. Or not. Sometimes responding does not help solve anything. I will keep an eye on the reports and see if this happens again. I only act if I have a good likelihood of improving the situation. If not, I let it be.

 

[svetz]

Had a chat with Will. He was disturbed by the number of complaints against me and has concluded a certain amount of hostility is healthy. As my primary motivation for being a moderator is to promote discussion without personal attacks our goals are no longer aligned and I asked that he remove me as a moderator. I know a lot of you supported that ideal in this thread and others and I just wanted to say thank you.

 

[noenegdod]

Had a chat with Will. He was disturbed by the number of complaints against me and has concluded a certain amount of hostility is healthy. As my primary motivation for being a moderator is to promote discussion without personal attacks our goals are no longer aligned and I asked that he remove me as a moderator. I know a lot of you supported that ideal in this thread and others and I just wanted to say thank you.

Thank you for your service and I applaud your decision. I also applaud those who pushed back. Sterilizing discussion and censoring everything that makes you or someone else feel less than good is damaging to society at large. Obviously there are limits and when it reaches "abuse" levels it needs to be stopped but the fear and avoidance of negative feeling makes you weak. What has happened here is a far left of center ideology colliding with what I would consider a center or just right of center expectation of free speech. Good on everyone involved and thank you for giving a f@&k.

 

[svetz]

Sterilizing discussion and censoring everything that makes you or someone else feel less than good is damaging to society at large.

So, first off the "everything" is simply ridiculous overblown hyperbole, a story you tell yourself to justify your thoughts and reasoning.

The reality is I didn't know what was going on in that thread until there were numerous reports, from both sides. That is both sides thought the thread had gone to hell and they were requesting moderator help.

When I looked, it was indeed bad enough to take action. But as is usual in those cases both sides had attacked the other and so both sides got edits, deletes, and warnings for violating the T&Cs. So sure, both sides were unhappy I didn't side exclusively with them and both sides were unhappy with me for giving them points. All the moderators and Will have access to the pre-edited content and know exactly what was said. It wasn't until after they got the help they requested that they were unhappy with me and this thread accusing me of being in the opposite camp appeared.

So, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I feel a lot of the discussion on this is purposeful obfuscation and self-rationalization of members that don't want to take responsibility for members hurting members. For those that apologized afterward that it was the "heat of the moment" I certainly understand as it was heated. It broke my heart to give points to Steve who was savaged (but gave back as good as got) and I asked WIll to consider reversing it based on the circumstances (@Steve_S - to be honest though, if I were in your shoes I might have said the same thing to those ungrateful little <explicative self-deleted so as to not violate T&Cs> ).

For the record, all edits/deletes were only removing members' attacks on other members. The discussion regarding the vendor was untouched.
To the best of my knowledge not one of them has reported a post that was edited and asked for a review.

Edits were needed instead of deletes so that the vendor viewpoints (on both sides) could be preserved - not to in any way censor the topic. If you look at the posts in the thread, you'll see there's still a lot of anger and heat, but the edits removed the anger and heat towards other members. Members don't be deserved to be abused simply because they have an opinion different than you. The topic was the vendor, not which member was the most inbred.

What has happened here is a far left of center ideology colliding with what I would consider a center or just right of center expectation of free speech.

I don't believe name-calling, unfounded accusations, or character assassination has any value in free speech.

Personal attacks are a way to stifle discussion when you don't have a solid compelling argument and yet still want to "win". It's a tactic that bullies use.

The violence of that language also discourages many from participating, silencing their voices.

 

[curiouscarbon]

Posts that ”cross the line” from [ brusque liberty speech ] to [ internet cool person e-bullying ], will continue to get my reports

Excited to see what projects are coming up next from everyone.

 

[noenegdod]

So, first off the "everything" is simply ridiculous overblown hyperbole, a story you tell yourself to justify your thoughts and reasoning.

If I was arguing with my wife, I would have been more careful to not use the word "everything" because of how it makes her feel. Having to live with her I have a really good reason to care about how she feels, even if she did something stupid. I really dont care how you feel and you have stated that:

As my primary motivation for being a moderator is to promote discussion without personal attacks

Your primary motivation for being a moderator is feelings. I can certainly agree that people should not be "abused" but it has been made clear that you are erroring to far on one side of that line.

The reality is I didn't know what was going on in that thread until there were numerous reports, from both sides. That is both sides thought the thread had gone to hell and they were requesting moderator help.

The guy with the funny little mustache didnt know what was going on unless people reported on their neighbors either. You are the moderator, just because someone is crying or breaking the rules doesnt mean action must be taken. You are attempting to be virtuous, a good little boy worthy of praise from the powers that be.

I don't believe name-calling, unfounded accusations, or character assassination has any value in free speech.

I agree, what it does is provide a window into the person doing the behavior. It also provides an opportunity to correct the behavior. Simply coming around mopping up their mess, giving them points eventually banning them teaches them nothing.

Also, this argument is like using rape as argument that all abortion should be legal. There probably are not to many people that would not agree that abortion should be an option to people in that situation. Now lets be clear, I am not arguing for or against abortion and this is in no way a political statement. It is simply an example of a disingenuous argument, but that argument is not a valid argument for all abortion just as your argument above is not a valid argument for all editing and deletion.

Personal attacks are a way to stifle discussion when you don't have a solid compelling argument and yet still want to "win". It's a tactic that bullies use.

Yes, you are correct. It is one of the metrics I (and anyone who isnt crying to anyone who will listen) use to know I am on the right track. You shutting it down takes a tool away from me.

The violence of that language also discourages many from participating, silencing their voices.

Words are not violence. The left is trying its hardest to push narrative that words cause physical injury and then use it as an excuse to go out and commit actual violence. Wake up man.

 

[Steve_S]

It broke my heart to give points to Steve who was savaged (but gave back as good as got) and I asked WIll to consider reversing it based on the circumstances (@Steve_S - to be honest though, if I were in your shoes I might have said the same thing to those ungrateful little <explicative self-deleted so as to not violate T&Cs> ).

The cat dragged me into this, I dunno about this topic and just looked it over. I get it's about Mods doing what they gotta do, I myself Been There Done That when I ran BBS' and much more, never ever again would I be cajoled into being a Moderator. Besides, since being diagnosed, you might say my Tolerance for dumb is gone and Curmudgeonly Tude replaced it, most especially when a Sir Dorkoff decides to exercise their witlessness.

The IGNORE Feature in this Forum Software is BRILLIANT ! Not only does it hide the Ignored's Messages but even the threads they start !

But the other consequence, one that happens as a result of Sir Dorkoff's, some of us just say "skrew it" and back away and eventually just wander off to other pastures elsewhere. Maybe it has been noticed already that Former Constant Contributors has meandered away and others have cut back their activities, responses & helpfulness. The fact is that some of us heavily promoted this site to get people here for good quality advice and help within a Very Good Community and that's even been recognized by MANY Vendors/Suppliers too.

Thing is, I have seen really Large & Successful forums Hit the SLUDGE Tank within weeks of letting the unsavoury getting a foothold. It starts soft & subtle and polite racism, jokes and slide statements which get more & more intense till you have a full blown Pile of Twaddle... THERE is a fair bit of Racial MUCK tossed about, it's NOT blatant but it's there and that is really bitter, sour and completely childish (Kindergarden sandbox fighting grade).

Regardless, I have one foot out the door and backed away from most everything and not even watching threads anymore...
I pop in and answer what I want IF I want when I'm bored or have time to kill.

 

[svetz]

...it has been made clear that you are erroring to far on one side of that line....

ROFL.

No proof of that whatsoever, quite the opposite in fact. I love how you create facts out of thin air. Anything to be right.

For example, this thread is about a moderator in the DIY CABAL misusing their powers to promote a forum-supported vendor.

Yet the follow-up thread has pretty much concluded perhaps there is no cabal, just people with opinions.
There were zero proofs of editing misconduct in that thread. Some even stood up and said yeah... I was too quick-tempered and shouldn't have said what I said.

Now you personally might cry foul on your off-topic post in this thread being moved into a different thread, but Will gives his moderator's a great deal of leeway. It is in no way "too far" on one side of the line, especially with the earlier request to please move that off-topic issue into another thread. The real question is why wouldn't you want your important point moved to where it could be discussed in an on-topic fashion rather than dilute this thread with nonsense?

... just because someone is crying or breaking the rules doesnt mean action must be taken.

Very true, a lot of people cry foul when there is no problem and in a lot of cases no action is taken.
The thing is you don't see it, you don't know, you're just making it up as you go along with assumptions.

Whenever mods discussed fringe cases, my stance is was always people are entitled to their opinions no matter how stupid...it has to be a clear violation to acted upon.

Yes, you are correct.

I know. It's a curse. I won't comment on the rest of your post, very poor taste IMO.

 

[noenegdod]

No proof of that whatsoever, quite the opposite in fact. I love how you create facts out of thin air. Anything to be right.

The fact that a thread was made about you, Complaints submitted and Will didn't support you. That's about enough "proof" for most.

I know. It's a curse. I won't comment on the rest of your post, very poor taste IMO.

Pretty weak. A broken clock is right twice a day, dont let it go to your head.

It is not in poor taste. Its a clear example with extreme consequences that demonstrates the garbage argument you are attempting to use to justify yourself. You simply have no defense and are attempting to use "high ground" as cover.

Very true, a lot of people cry foul when there is no problem and in a lot of cases no action is taken.
The thing is you don't see it, you don't know, you're just making it up as you go along with assumptions.

I wont say your are right about something again because we all see how that goes, but, no, I dont see everything. I dont have to. I do witness somethings and some of the things I have witnessed are oversteps IMO. Some people think their "track record" or reputation should be all that matters. I truly dont care who you are or what you have done before now. You need to justify your actions, support your arguments and back up your claims. No matter who you are. I dont care how many other complaints you have found frivolous and let go. That isnt the issue and it doesnt buy you credit or a pass. You have made other decisions that were, IMO and others, oversteps or just poor.

 

[svetz]

The IGNORE Feature in this Forum Software is BRILLIANT ! Not only does it hide the Ignored's Messages but even the threads they start !

Steve! Did I mention how brilliant you are? Thanks!!!

 

[Steve_S]

Steve! Did I mention how brilliant you are? Thanks!!!

Ohhhhkay, it's just a software feature, I had no hand in coding THIS Forum Software...
Yes, my Ignore List is populated and works a treat - call it the Bin of Shunned Souls...

 

[noenegdod]

 

[svetz]

Ohhhhkay, it's just a software feature, I had no hand in coding THIS Forum Software...

It's just that I've just been a moderator since the board started and never had the option before. Completely forgot about it. I don't mind discussing things rationally, but when folks make up stories without any evidence and ignore the actual evidence ... well just not worth the time.

Yes, my Ignore List is populated and works a treat - call it the Bin of Shunned Souls...

Very poetic of you! Not even the first day as a civilian and I already have one in the bucket. Hopefully, it'll take a lot longer to get the second.

 

[Steve_S]

It's just that I've just been a moderator since the board started and never had the option before. Completely forgot about it. I don't mind discussing things rationally, but when folks make up stories without any evidence and ignore the actual evidence ... well just not worth the time.

Very poetic of you! Not even the first day as a civilian and I already have one in the bucket. Hopefully, it'll take a lot longer to get the second.

1st day as Civi, quit being a Mod eh. Good Timing, I just reported another "New User" going off on pseudo racist tirades. What a pile of.....

 

[Bob B]

@svetz .... Hope you don't abandon the forum all together .... you start some interesting threads and have valuable input.

..... and ... even though I still think you are wrong about Bill Gates ... LOL .... I appreciate your participation on here.
I don't know what was behind Snoobler's departure, but the forum has been worse for it ... in my opinion.

Hope it doesn't get too wild west around here now.