Need Will's review:

noenegdod

Photon Sorcerer
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So, first off the "everything" is simply ridiculous overblown hyperbole, a story you tell yourself to justify your thoughts and reasoning.
If I was arguing with my wife, I would have been more careful to not use the word "everything" because of how it makes her feel. Having to live with her I have a really good reason to care about how she feels, even if she did something stupid. I really dont care how you feel and you have stated that:

As my primary motivation for being a moderator is to promote discussion without personal attacks

Your primary motivation for being a moderator is feelings. I can certainly agree that people should not be "abused" but it has been made clear that you are erroring to far on one side of that line.

The reality is I didn't know what was going on in that thread until there were numerous reports, from both sides. That is both sides thought the thread had gone to hell and they were requesting moderator help.
The guy with the funny little mustache didnt know what was going on unless people reported on their neighbors either. You are the moderator, just because someone is crying or breaking the rules doesnt mean action must be taken. You are attempting to be virtuous, a good little boy worthy of praise from the powers that be.

I don't believe name-calling, unfounded accusations, or character assassination has any value in free speech.
I agree, what it does is provide a window into the person doing the behavior. It also provides an opportunity to correct the behavior. Simply coming around mopping up their mess, giving them points eventually banning them teaches them nothing.

Also, this argument is like using rape as argument that all abortion should be legal. There probably are not to many people that would not agree that abortion should be an option to people in that situation. Now lets be clear, I am not arguing for or against abortion and this is in no way a political statement. It is simply an example of a disingenuous argument, but that argument is not a valid argument for all abortion just as your argument above is not a valid argument for all editing and deletion.

Personal attacks are a way to stifle discussion when you don't have a solid compelling argument and yet still want to "win". It's a tactic that bullies use.

Yes, you are correct. It is one of the metrics I (and anyone who isnt crying to anyone who will listen) use to know I am on the right track. You shutting it down takes a tool away from me.

The violence of that language also discourages many from participating, silencing their voices.
Words are not violence. The left is trying its hardest to push narrative that words cause physical injury and then use it as an excuse to go out and commit actual violence. Wake up man.
 

Steve_S

Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
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It broke my heart to give points to Steve who was savaged (but gave back as good as got) and I asked WIll to consider reversing it based on the circumstances (@Steve_S - to be honest though, if I were in your shoes I might have said the same thing to those ungrateful little <explicative self-deleted so as to not violate T&Cs> ).
The cat dragged me into this, I dunno about this topic and just looked it over. I get it's about Mods doing what they gotta do, I myself Been There Done That when I ran BBS' and much more, never ever again would I be cajoled into being a Moderator. Besides, since being diagnosed, you might say my Tolerance for dumb is gone and Curmudgeonly Tude replaced it, most especially when a Sir Dorkoff decides to exercise their witlessness.

The IGNORE Feature in this Forum Software is BRILLIANT ! Not only does it hide the Ignored's Messages but even the threads they start !

But the other consequence, one that happens as a result of Sir Dorkoff's, some of us just say "skrew it" and back away and eventually just wander off to other pastures elsewhere. Maybe it has been noticed already that Former Constant Contributors has meandered away and others have cut back their activities, responses & helpfulness. The fact is that some of us heavily promoted this site to get people here for good quality advice and help within a Very Good Community and that's even been recognized by MANY Vendors/Suppliers too.

Thing is, I have seen really Large & Successful forums Hit the SLUDGE Tank within weeks of letting the unsavoury getting a foothold. It starts soft & subtle and polite racism, jokes and slide statements which get more & more intense till you have a full blown Pile of Twaddle... THERE is a fair bit of Racial MUCK tossed about, it's NOT blatant but it's there and that is really bitter, sour and completely childish (Kindergarden sandbox fighting grade).

Regardless, I have one foot out the door and backed away from most everything and not even watching threads anymore...
I pop in and answer what I want IF I want when I'm bored or have time to kill.
 

svetz

Works in theory! Practice? That's something else
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...it has been made clear that you are erroring to far on one side of that line....
ROFL.

No proof of that whatsoever, quite the opposite in fact. I love how you create facts out of thin air. Anything to be right.

For example, this thread is about a moderator in the DIY CABAL misusing their powers to promote a forum-supported vendor.

Yet the follow-up thread has pretty much concluded perhaps there is no cabal, just people with opinions.
There were zero proofs of editing misconduct in that thread. Some even stood up and said yeah... I was too quick-tempered and shouldn't have said what I said.

Now you personally might cry foul on your off-topic post in this thread being moved into a different thread, but Will gives his moderator's a great deal of leeway. It is in no way "too far" on one side of the line, especially with the earlier request to please move that off-topic issue into another thread. The real question is why wouldn't you want your important point moved to where it could be discussed in an on-topic fashion rather than dilute this thread with nonsense?

... just because someone is crying or breaking the rules doesnt mean action must be taken.
Very true, a lot of people cry foul when there is no problem and in a lot of cases no action is taken.
The thing is you don't see it, you don't know, you're just making it up as you go along with assumptions.

Whenever mods discussed fringe cases, my stance is was always people are entitled to their opinions no matter how stupid...it has to be a clear violation to acted upon.

Yes, you are correct.
I know. It's a curse. I won't comment on the rest of your post, very poor taste IMO.
 
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noenegdod

Photon Sorcerer
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Messages
989
No proof of that whatsoever, quite the opposite in fact. I love how you create facts out of thin air. Anything to be right.
The fact that a thread was made about you, Complaints submitted and Will didn't support you. That's about enough "proof" for most.

I know. It's a curse. I won't comment on the rest of your post, very poor taste IMO.

Pretty weak. A broken clock is right twice a day, dont let it go to your head.

It is not in poor taste. Its a clear example with extreme consequences that demonstrates the garbage argument you are attempting to use to justify yourself. You simply have no defense and are attempting to use "high ground" as cover.

Very true, a lot of people cry foul when there is no problem and in a lot of cases no action is taken.
The thing is you don't see it, you don't know, you're just making it up as you go along with assumptions.

I wont say your are right about something again because we all see how that goes, but, no, I dont see everything. I dont have to. I do witness somethings and some of the things I have witnessed are oversteps IMO. Some people think their "track record" or reputation should be all that matters. I truly dont care who you are or what you have done before now. You need to justify your actions, support your arguments and back up your claims. No matter who you are. I dont care how many other complaints you have found frivolous and let go. That isnt the issue and it doesnt buy you credit or a pass. You have made other decisions that were, IMO and others, oversteps or just poor.
 

svetz

Works in theory! Practice? That's something else
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The IGNORE Feature in this Forum Software is BRILLIANT ! Not only does it hide the Ignored's Messages but even the threads they start !
Steve! Did I mention how brilliant you are? Thanks!!!
 

Steve_S

Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
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Steve! Did I mention how brilliant you are? Thanks!!!
Ohhhhkay, it's just a software feature, I had no hand in coding THIS Forum Software...
Yes, my Ignore List is populated and works a treat - call it the Bin of Shunned Souls...
 

svetz

Works in theory! Practice? That's something else
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Ohhhhkay, it's just a software feature, I had no hand in coding THIS Forum Software...
It's just that I've just been a moderator since the board started and never had the option before. Completely forgot about it. I don't mind discussing things rationally, but when folks make up stories without any evidence and ignore the actual evidence ... well just not worth the time.
Yes, my Ignore List is populated and works a treat - call it the Bin of Shunned Souls...
Very poetic of you! Not even the first day as a civilian and I already have one in the bucket. Hopefully, it'll take a lot longer to get the second.
 

Steve_S

Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
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Messages
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Rural NE Ontario Canada
It's just that I've just been a moderator since the board started and never had the option before. Completely forgot about it. I don't mind discussing things rationally, but when folks make up stories without any evidence and ignore the actual evidence ... well just not worth the time.

Very poetic of you! Not even the first day as a civilian and I already have one in the bucket. Hopefully, it'll take a lot longer to get the second.
1st day as Civi, quit being a Mod eh. Good Timing, I just reported another "New User" going off on pseudo racist tirades. What a pile of.....
 

Bob B

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@svetz .... Hope you don't abandon the forum all together .... you start some interesting threads and have valuable input.

..... and ... even though I still think you are wrong about Bill Gates ... LOL .... I appreciate your participation on here.
I don't know what was behind Snoobler's departure, but the forum has been worse for it ... in my opinion.

Hope it doesn't get too wild west around here now.
 
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svetz

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@svetz .... even though I still think you are wrong about Bill Gates ... LOL ....
It's really not about me being right or wrong, it's about the adventure to determine which (if any) anti-Bill sentiment is actually correct. He's a polarizing figure and I don't really understand why people gravitate towards believing so many bad things him about (well there's decades of suffering under the windows OSes, his bailing out of Apple, personal life hanky-panky, and this I guess). But really, which of these two guys are you going to trust if you're a Plasmodium? (Hint: One has an organized campaign to eradicate you, the other is holding something (I forget what) hostage for $1M)

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(ROFL) Seriously though, thanks for the kind words, much appreciated. I like that we can discuss differences as civilized folk and actually enjoy the forums too.

... you start some interesting threads and have valuable input....
< blushing > Stop already! Thanks again for the kind words; that check will be in the mail shortly.... ; -)
(Probably shouldn't make jokes like that on the "cabal" thread.)

Hope it doesn't get too wild west around here now.
There's always the ignore button. If everyone does it to the trolls they'll all get marginalized to where only trollers will be responding to trollers... which sounds somewhat poetic.
 

Bob B

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I lost what little remaining faith I had in Bill when I found out that he "met" with Epstein a LOT of times .... Bill says it was fundraising ..... but I guess that whole discussion is for another thread.
 

DerpsyDoodler

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Eh, all I can say is hopefully the forums' changes are for the better. It wasn't my intent to make you step down (unless it was determined you should by the appropriate people for the appropriate reasons). Pretty sure that was made clear in the 4-way DM you and I were part of.

Unfortunately, this is the outcome.

The subtle implication about the cabal thread is off-base. This didn't have to be this way. I would have been happy with an acknowledgement that Will was going to review it. I did not name any names, I just wanted to get Will Prowse's eyes on the situation.

While its good that you self-reported, I nor any of the other forum members had any way of verifying that.
 

svetz

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Accusations when well-founded are the cornerstone to enacting positive change. They should always be taken seriously. False accusations are like crying wolf, makes it harder for anyone to believe the next time. Even true accusations, without hard evidence, can be dismissed as false ( for example, that's why videos of police misuse are so important).

I'm sorry you felt I and others had motives to support a vendor because they were somehow a DIYSolar vendor. Hopefully, you see now that different people have different experiences and therefore say different things... generally everyone is just being honest (not that some won't troll the flames to increase entertainment). People that have a long and helpful history on the forums are most likely the ones just trying to speak their truth as they see it and everyone is entitled to an opinion no matter how different from others. As you've personally seen, once name-calling starts, it's not a discussion anymore, the topic becomes secondary to striking back. It's why participants in that thread requested moderator help.

Not that we don't get shills disguising themselves as members, we do all the time. Fortunately, they're new members and they're crap at it which makes them easy to identify and they get banned pretty quickly. I wish I could say the moderators were the experts at identifying them, but it's the reports from the eagle-eyed members that get the investigation rolling (in fact it's member reports that generally initiate all moderator action).

In regards to me, the edits and the deletes were aimed exclusively at removing attacks on members. Anyone can verify that by reading through the entire thread. All the heat about the vendor is still there, all the vendor defense is still there. Only attacks on members from both sides are gone and it's gone because attacks on members violate the T&Cs. Both sides made reports, both sides were edited, both sides got points. The thread was closed for the reason stated in the final post. The final post also requests that if I did accidentally miss anything hurtful to please report it. As an ex-moderator, I'd say it was a job well done and have zero regrets.

I know Will said he wouldn't have closed the thread, but given how much time cleaning the thread took only to have it start up the next day? As an unpaid mod I wasn't going to waste more time on members in such clear violation. As Will said, he gives moderators a great deal of leeway in dealing with such issues and threads spun out of control are very commonly locked.

Unfortunately, this is the outcome.
Nah, less work for me and no one is irreplaceable. But if you're open to well-meaning advice from a gnarly old care-bear, check for the YOU word in posts. The YOU word is the most dangerous word in any post as it shifts the dialog from the topic to the person. If it's in there, check if the intent in any possible metamessages is really what you want to convey. If someone has used the YOU word on you, call them on it.

It wasn't my intent to make you step down
Please don't concern yourself with that, your hand in it is more indirect, more like sparking a much-needed secondary conversation. It's all about the reasons I stated earlier. I also apologize for not making it more crystal clear that it's not about you or this thread. I'm just a lunkhead and didn't think about it. No one should blame you for it. So please don't feel guilty about it and please no one blame him in any way.

Pretty sure that was made clear in the 4-way DM you and I were part of.
As I said in my one response, I added in others and then "left" that conversation after my initial response to recuse myself.
I've no idea what was said in it beyond that and don't care to.
 

DerpsyDoodler

Photon Sorcerer
Joined
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Messages
2,281
Accusations when well-founded are the cornerstone to enacting positive change. They should always be taken seriously. False accusations are like crying wolf, makes it harder for anyone to believe the next time. Even true accusations, without hard evidence, can be dismissed as false ( for example, that's why videos of police misuse are so important).

I'm sorry you felt I and others had motives to support a vendor because they were somehow a DIYSolar vendor. Hopefully, you see now that different people have different experiences and therefore say different things... generally everyone is just being honest (not that some won't troll the flames to increase entertainment). People that have a long and helpful history on the forums are most likely the ones just trying to speak their truth as they see it and everyone is entitled to an opinion no matter how different from others. As you've personally seen, once name-calling starts, it's not a discussion anymore, the topic becomes secondary to striking back. It's why participants in that thread requested moderator help.

Not that we don't get shills disguising themselves as members, we do all the time. Fortunately, they're new members and they're crap at it which makes them easy to identify and they get banned pretty quickly. I wish I could say the moderators were the experts at identifying them, but it's the reports from the eagle-eyed members that get the investigation rolling (in fact it's member reports that generally initiate all moderator action).

In regards to me, the edits and the deletes were aimed exclusively at removing attacks on members. Anyone can verify that by reading through the entire thread. All the heat about the vendor is still there, all the vendor defense is still there. Only attacks on members from both sides are gone and it's gone because attacks on members violate the T&Cs. Both sides made reports, both sides were edited, both sides got points. The thread was closed for the reason stated in the final post. The final post also requests that if I did accidentally miss anything hurtful to please report it. As an ex-moderator, I'd say it was a job well done and have zero regrets.

I know Will said he wouldn't have closed the thread, but given how much time cleaning the thread took only to have it start up the next day? As an unpaid mod I wasn't going to waste more time on members in such clear violation. As Will said, he gives moderators a great deal of leeway in dealing with such issues and threads spun out of control are very commonly locked.


Nah, less work for me and no one is irreplaceable. But if you're open to well-meaning advice from a gnarly old care-bear, check for the YOU word in posts. The YOU word is the most dangerous word in any post as it shifts the dialog from the topic to the person. If it's in there, check if the intent in any possible metamessages is really what you want to convey. If someone has used the YOU word on you, call them on it.


Please don't concern yourself with that, your hand in it is more indirect, more like sparking a much-needed secondary conversation. It's all about the reasons I stated earlier. I also apologize for not making it more crystal clear that it's not about you or this thread. I'm just a lunkhead and didn't think about it. No one should blame you for it. So please don't feel guilty about it and please no one blame him in any way.


As I said in my one response, I added in others and then "left" that conversation after my initial response to recuse myself.
I've no idea what was said in it beyond that and don't care to.
Credit due for a very humble response.
Just to make sure you know, I didn't say what I said out of guilt, I said it because I meant it. So far, no one has accused me. I take responsibility for my part, regardless. Who knows? maybe you'll take up the mantle again at some point.
 

DerpsyDoodler

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Your moderators are. You trust them or you don't. If you don't, let Will know (preferable privately) so he can get rid of them.
To my knowledge, there is no private way to inform, Will. He understandably does not receive DM on here (unless that's changed).
 

upnorthandpersonal

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To my knowledge, there is no private way to inform, Will. He understandably does not receive DM on here (unless that's changed).

You can use the start conversation (conversations icon, the mail box) to PM Will just like any other user. Whether or not he has time to reply/want to reply is another thing.
 

svetz

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Will also looks at the reports every so often.
Anything moderators feel unsure about (there's often a great deal of discussion on them) they leave for him to handle and then learn from him based on the actions he takes.
 

Will Prowse

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To my knowledge, there is no private way to inform, Will. He understandably does not receive DM on here (unless that's changed).
I read them all, but ignore them. 80% of them are people asking me to build or design their system. The rest are a mix of complaints about other members and business propositions that I ignore.

Yes, the report button is the best way for me to see something.
 
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