Neighbor just installed grid tie

[GXMnow]

Same thought here. $3 to 4$ per watt for an installed system with all the fees is the typical range. My system is about half the size and I paid about half as much, so same cost per watt. I was $17K out of pocket and got just over $5K on my tax refund with the 30% credit. Enphase is usually a bit more than a typical String system. But then Solar-Edge with the optimizers is not far below Enphase.

Unless the electric rates go up a lot though, it won't pay off in 8 years. My summer bills were $300 to $500 and I still figured a 10 year pay off. And the change from tiered to "Time of Use" made the pay off even longer for a straight grid tied system. With most new "Net Metering" installs, they are going to Time of Use so you really need a battery to make it pay off. I time shift at least 10 KWHs a day now to use the cheap solar power in the expensive evening time slot. I would not recommend a grid tie only any more. You need to go hybrid and use your solar instead of selling the extra to the grid.

 

[RinVt]

My next door 79 year old neighbor came over to visit when we returned from vacation a month ago. He told me he was having solar installed. The installers were here Monday and Tuesday. 25 x 400W panels for a 10Kw grid tie system. I finally walked over and looked to see what he had. Roof mount on a shed, there is a tree to the southeast that doesn't currently shade the array but will in winter, a large tall tree to the south that will probably shade in the winter and while I was there today at 2 pm there is a tree to the southwest already shading the west end of the array.

Microinverters, the company uses Solaredge with Iron Ridge for mounts. 2 installers were here for 2 days total, first day they arrived around 10:30 am just after the electrical wholesaler delivered the pallet of 25 panels and the mounts.

Total cost is $37,500 for fees to utility, permits and the install and this is before tax credits. Sales told him 8 years payback (LOL). His current electric bill is $180/month average. He believes he won't have any electric bill. They never run the air conditioning in the house unless it is 100F outside as he says the utility bill gets too high.

I figured about $12K to $15K for materials to do this job (maybe less), the distance from array RSD to utility meter is 30 feet.

I didn't say anything, he is in honeymoon phase, I'm waiting until he gets the utility bill mid winter. Should be interesting......

I hope he got battery's with the system.

 

[timselectric]

I hope he got battery's with the system.

Read past the first post.

 

[RinVt]

What good would batteries do for a grid-tied system? If the grid goes out, the inverter shuts down. Batteries are best fit for an off-grid system, as I understand it.

my system is grid tied and has battery's works great even when the grid goes down.

 

[timselectric]

my system is grid tied and has battery's works great even when the grid goes down.

You have a hybrid system.

 

[EastTexCowboy]

I just about died laughing seeing that tree fall. He was worried when I cut down mine that I would drop some trees on his other shed and told me to hire it done. Right, that would have been over $25K. I dropped every tree where it was intended to go.

The hinge notch the Mennonite cut was something, dang lucky he didn't get hurt.

I grew up in the log woods and around a sawmill so I know exactly what you're talking about. I had a friend come by one day when I was about to drop a tree between two of my buildings. It was leaning pretty hard towards one but it was a healthy tree so holding one side and pulling it around wasn't a problem. He freaked out that I was going to drop it on the building. I showed him were it was going to land and dared him to put his hat there. Smashed that hat completely flat and he never questioned me on that stuff again. That said, I don't ever get cocky. Damn trees are looking for a way to kill you and they will. I had a helper this spring helping me clear some dead pines. He swore he had years of experience felling and he talked a good game. Then he cut one right through the hinge and it was just sitting on the stump a second, then jumped off the stump and damn near got him. He lost all chainsaw rights after that one.

 

[EastTexCowboy]

I got a quote before I went DIY. it was insane like $40K for enphase and I would have to have a bunch of trees cut down. I asked about batteries (main reason I wanted a system) and he said they didn't want to do it but if I insisted it was extremely expensive.

I had a friend call me all excited about a quote he got for solar. I don't recall the exact price but it was somewhere over $40k for a 10k 0r 12k system. I asked if it included batteries. He said no, why? I said well, you told me once you wanted solar for when the power went out. You're not going to have power with no batteries. So he called them back and they told him I was full of it and yada yada, but he did figure out they were trying to scam him and walked away. This is just one story about one friend. I feel bad for people who get duped. But at least this guy asked me first. A few others didn't.

 

[sunsurfer]

Dang, so many people getting ripped off with grid tie. My last system with 2 Victron invertesrs, 8 Victron SCC, 20kwh of LFP and a pallet of CHEAP panels came in around $9800. I thought that was allot, even with the really cheap 8k worth of panels. ($.10 per watt).

You could buy so much LFP with that kind of cash, you would never need grid tie.

 

[radko87]

Similar things are happening here as well (Eastern Europe). Solar is getting quite popular and installers don't take any effort to educate potential buyers and guide them to a healthy and usable system. They max out the profit and move to the next job. I have a colleague, who bought a 12kw grid-tied system and his wife rejoiced at the prospect of no more power outages. Little did they know, that the inverter they got installed did not support off-grid mode. Another colleague bought an 8kw PV with 15kw batteries in a hybrid setup to charge his car and supplement the house usage. Turns out installers had put in a small 3P inverter, which did not support phase imbalance. All the hardware was Huawei proprietary stuff, so no going out of the ecosystem. He is now forced to go over all the paperwork and permits to sell to the grid as a workaround for the technical limitations of his system.

 

[robby]

Truly sad that people rip off other people.
That Installer could have probably sold him exactly what he needed and just charged the same percentage based on the equipment value. It would still be a rip off but at least the customer would be happy with what he had.

An Installer that I met about a month ago was telling my friend a story about how he had to completely redo an elderly guys system because of all of the problems he had been having with the original install, problems including shading issues and an Inverter that kept on having problems.
Now here is the kicker, the guy is rich and he said the guy wanted everything changed even though this installer told him that a lot of it could be reused. So he did what he asked and the guy was very happy with the new system.
Now guess what he said happened a few weeks later when the old guy called him. Wait for it, wait for it.... The guy told him he could have the two Fortress eVault Batteries that use to be attached to the old system.

 

[kommando]

I only buy 2nd hand stuff with the exception of DIY battery builds, if there were less of these expensive chocolate fireguard installations I would have less choice and also have to pay more.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

That is a shame. 37.5k for a 10kw system with no batteries is outrageous.
Why he didnt follow your example or asked you first for advice?

Some people just “know better “.

 

[peufeu]

I just saw a 10k€ quote for a 3kWp micro inverter installation so don't worry, French installers will rip you off just as well as American ones lol

What good would batteries do for a grid-tied system? If the grid goes out, the inverter shuts down. Batteries are best fit for an off-grid system, as I understand it.

Hybrid inverters work both as grid tied and offgrid

 

[Zwy]

Same thought here. $3 to 4$ per watt for an installed system with all the fees is the typical range. My system is about half the size and I paid about half as much, so same cost per watt. I was $17K out of pocket and got just over $5K on my tax refund with the 30% credit. Enphase is usually a bit more than a typical String system. But then Solar-Edge with the optimizers is not far below Enphase.

Unless the electric rates go up a lot though, it won't pay off in 8 years. My summer bills were $300 to $500 and I still figured a 10 year pay off. And the change from tiered to "Time of Use" made the pay off even longer for a straight grid tied system. With most new "Net Metering" installs, they are going to Time of Use so you really need a battery to make it pay off. I time shift at least 10 KWHs a day now to use the cheap solar power in the expensive evening time slot. I would not recommend a grid tie only any more. You need to go hybrid and use your solar instead of selling the extra to the grid.

I agree 100%.

Now that it is installed, if the next property owner wants to install a hybrid, the groundwork has been laid. There is a daughter that moved back here that lived in NYC since graduating high school but she bought a house in town and I doubt she will move onto the acreage when they pass away. They have 5 daughters, no sons. I don't see any other daughters moving back to this area.

 

[Zwy]

Some people just “know better “.

You must know my neighbor?

His brother in law and I were talking one day and the brother in law made the comment, "He will tell you how to do it". That comment certainly rung true.

 

[Zwy]

I hope he got battery's with the system.

Grid tie only, no batteries.

 

[EastTexCowboy]

Solar, as with some other industries such as IT or auto repair, provides an easy path for unscrupulous actors. When it's something the consumer knows nothing about they depend upon the vendor/technician to tell them what they need. Over time a lot of the bad operators get weeded out because their reputation catches up with them. Hopefully that will happen with solar. It sure seems that if a company was honest and ethical, they could make a ton of money in solar. Of course you're always going to have the gypsy asphalt guys with that tired line about finishing up a job down the road and have some left over that's cheap. I still get one of those occasionally. I just ask them where that other job is because I want to go take a look at their work. Asking for references is always a good idea with contractors and I highly recommend doing so to anyone considering having a solar system installed by someone else. The other thing I insist upon with contractors is they don't get paid in full until the work is done and I've made sure it's right. Usually I hold back at least 50%. Just did that with a water well a few weeks ago. When it was pumping clear water and everything looked good they got their money.

 

[Mattb4]

If your neighbor did not go into debt to put in the grid tie solar, and it is a decent enough install, than I do not see any problems. At his age of 79 it is unlikely that ROI has any meaning. I do feel sorry for those that saddle themselves with a large debt by getting talked into a solar setup that do not understand the details.

Sadly most folks do not understand electricity other than they flip a switch, turn a knob and things run or not. Magic.

 

[Zwy]

I was surprised he didn't ask me more questions. He told me he had talked to a few people in the immediate area about the grid tie systems they have, but didn't ask me much for questions. He does know I run the house off grid and heat with the heat pumps for most of the heating season except December and January.

$37.5K at 5% interest = $1.875 per year. Most banks here were offering cd's at just over 5%. If his bill is $180/month average, I don't see much ROI. There is a rate increase, just approved by utilities board of 15% and residential monthly charge for electric customers from $13 to $15.50 so that does factor in. Alliant had been seeking a multi year increase of 26% compounded for commercial and residential was about 20%. There was some public backlash over proposed increases and advocate groups were heavily involved in the decision. Alliant has the highest rates in Iowa.

I'm certain there will some fees added in the end, Alliant can't ask for a rate increase again until 2029.

My shop system is 100% depreciable as a business expense. This is hugely advantageous with a 15% rate increase over residential with a 30% tax credit. Possibly he thought maybe it would be a good ROI for him since I'm adding a shop system this year. If he completely wiped out his utility bill then he would realize a 10% return on the same money by adding solar (15% minus 5% interest on a CD).

 

[Aridom82]

I was surprised he didn't ask me more questions. He told me he had talked to a few people in the immediate area about the grid tie systems they have, but didn't ask me much for questions. He does know I run the house off grid and heat with the heat pumps for most of the heating season except December and January.

$37.5K at 5% interest = $1.875 per year. Most banks here were offering cd's at just over 5%. If his bill is $180/month average, I don't see much ROI. There is a rate increase, just approved by utilities board of 15% and residential monthly charge for electric customers from $13 to $15.50 so that does factor in. Alliant had been seeking a multi year increase of 26% compounded for commercial and residential was about 20%. There was some public backlash over proposed increases and advocate groups were heavily involved in the decision. Alliant has the highest rates in Iowa.

I'm certain there will some fees added in the end, Alliant can't ask for a rate increase again until 2029.

My shop system is 100% depreciable as a business expense. This is hugely advantageous with a 15% rate increase over residential with a 30% tax credit. Possibly he thought maybe it would be a good ROI for him since I'm adding a shop system this year. If he completely wiped out his utility bill then he would realize a 10% return on the same money by adding solar (15% minus 5% interest on a CD).

Fiat money has lost 30% of its value in the last 4 years, it is normal that energy prices have gone up dramatically along with everything else.
But in my experience there is a factor that counts even more than the simple ROI calculation when you build a solar system (specially a diy off grid one with batteries), and that is the increase in quality of life you get when you can use tons of energy happily, not thinking once about the cost of it.
Since i built my system i use so much energy for all kinds of things, and i am very happy to do it. Light up all my workshop in a Saturday night to work on stuff, having my appartment fresh in the summer and warm in the winter all day, use the oven and the electric grill for hours, having a workstation on 24/7, driving around without any concern for gas or diesel, you name it.
And it is so nice that is just the sunlight powering it. People dont know what they are missing.

 

[Zwy]

We increased the amount of electricity we use and decreased the amount of propane usage since installing the house off grid system. The positives are many such as energy independence, more comfort.

I know I wouldn't go back.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

You must know my neighbor?

His brother in law and I were talking one day and the brother in law made the comment, "He will tell you how to do it". That comment certainly rung true.

Just know people like him. Several around here also.

I just tell them “ ok Have a nice day” then walk away.

A few weeks or months later the complaints come.

 

[timselectric]

These people are the product of "no child left behind" policies, incorrectly implemented. Instead of making the effort to teach them, they just pass them through to be someone else's problem.

 

[EastTexCowboy]

These people are the product of "no child left behind" policies, incorrectly implemented. Instead of making the effort to teach them, they just pass them through to be someone else's problem.

Absolutely agree that this condition is worsened by those and other policies. But there have been know-it-all's around since there have been people around. I think part of it comes from some inner terror saying, "I don't know."

I don't blame someone for not knowing if they've never been exposed to something. Ignorance is not a character flaw. But Ron White called it right when he coined the phrase, "You can't fix stupid."

 

[timselectric]

Yes, but natural selection used to remove them from the gene pool.
Now, we protect them from their own stupidity.
And I agree that ignorance is not an issue, but stupidity is.