NEM PGE Application Questions

[Kuma]

OK, that makes sense. Glad to hear that they're responsive. I have had good help from PG&E once I reach the right people. Though it's sometimes hard to know whether you have (and they don't always tell you you got the wrong department)

Regarding the optimizers. If SolarEdge instructions say you have to install them, you have to install them. Otherwise you are violating the listing / NEC. Listing tested it with optimizers/supported config. Electrical code says you have to respect what the manufacturer wrote down.

If you don't like SolarEdge markup you can consider Tigo. The hardware is not as capable as SE optimizers (no MPPT, limited current/voltage matching capability of 25% difference), but they are interoperable with multiple inverter companies. I'm not using Tigo because my abysmal shading situation strongly points to microinverters/individual MPPT rather than strings. As well, DC wiring requires special wiring methods that I was not sure I would understand enough to pull off on my own, when I locked my project parameters a few months ago. After lurking on this forum for a bit more, I'm more confident, but I locked it already.

Those Tigo rapid shutdown devices when paired with SMA inverters seem like a piecemeal design. Extra board is required for the SMA inverter. The Tigo price point seems fair enough for their dual inverter module. Also, we do not have internet here preventing monitoring the system from an app or web site. Blue tooth is possible when I happen to be near, or in, the barn.

Enphase is looking like the strong contender despite my opposition to micro inverters. As mentioned earlier, their are no shade issues or internet.

 

[Hedges]

SMA Sunny Boy has keep-alive signal, but they support some other RSD box "SunSpec". Don't think those are available dual. No extra board required.

https://files.sma.de/downloads/SBxx-US-DS-en-41.pdf

https://files.sma.de/downloads/SMASunSpecRSD-DS-en-19.pdf

I was going to use an older model TriPower, which doesn't have keep-alive only the capacitor discharge function. So I bought Tigo dual RSD and separate transmitter. Since I'm now planning to use the above Sunny Boy, I'll use the Tigo with it.

I don't know if AFCI shuts off RSD, but I think it should. I'm going to see if a status relay or something can turn off my external keep-alive. If not, I'll try to interface the Sensata AFCI that I previously bought.

If I do put a system on my sister's house I'll get the compatible RSD.

Once upon a time I saw 4 input RSD but not anymore.

 

[zanydroid]

Those Tigo rapid shutdown devices when paired with SMA inverters seem like a piecemeal design. Extra board is required for the SMA inverter. The Tigo price point seems fair enough for their dual inverter module. Also, we do not have internet here preventing monitoring the system from an app or web site. Blue tooth is possible when I happen to be near, or in, the barn.

There's no dual inverter, do you mean dual optimizer? The optimizer is only an impedance matching device.

Tigo has two product lines. One that takes the keep-alive signal only for RSD, and the other that has RSD + optional monitoring + optional optimization. The latter uses a radio transmitter and a somewhat intelligent box called a CCA. I suspect the picture you got is for the latter communications model.

The keep-alive box for TS-F is super simple. It does not require Internet. All it does is transmit a signal over the DC power lines. Some might even say the modularity is good vs an all in one.

I don't know if Tigo CCA supports offline monitoring / firmware updates. I don't think you can expect a complex signal protocol like this to be implemented across vendors. SolarEdge is vertically integrated, so to speak, since it's all in one house. But you pay for the privilege

If you have no shading then just go with strings and RSD. Maybe consider panel level monitoring to help you understand/debug production.

What do you think about Hoymiles vs Enphase? ncsolarelectric on the forum here is a distributor.

 

[Kuma]

There's no dual inverter, do you mean dual optimizer? The optimizer is only an impedance matching device.

Tigo has two product lines. One that takes the keep-alive signal only for RSD, and the other that has RSD + optional monitoring + optional optimization. The latter uses a radio transmitter and a somewhat intelligent box called a CCA. I suspect the picture you got is for the latter communications model.

The keep-alive box for TS-F is super simple. It does not require Internet. All it does is transmit a signal over the DC power lines. Some might even say the modularity is good vs an all in one.

I don't know if Tigo CCA supports offline monitoring / firmware updates. I don't think you can expect a complex signal protocol like this to be implemented across vendors. SolarEdge is vertically integrated, so to speak, since it's all in one house. But you pay for the privilege

If you have no shading then just go with strings and RSD. Maybe consider panel level monitoring to help you understand/debug production.

What do you think about Hoymiles vs Enphase? ncsolarelectric on the forum here is a distributor.

Spent only a quick minute on HMS last night. Everyone's replies and helpful information kept me busy. Will have time today.

Im also going to research Fimer string inverter. It has Sunspec built in that will work with the Tigo RSD.

Agreed, string inverter and RSD preferred.

 

[zanydroid]

Im also going to research Fimer string inverter. It has Sunspec built in that will work with the Tigo RSD.

Is that on the CEC list? With the smart inverter 2020 attestations?

Solar Equipment Lists Program

www.energy.ca.gov

 

[Kuma]

Is that on the CEC list? With the smart inverter 2020 attestations?

Solar Equipment Lists Program

www.energy.ca.gov

Nope Ok, feeling deflated now. Spoke with A1SoalrStore prior to ordering QCell panels and all looked good. Made the order and 20 mins later they send an email saying order canceled, panels not in stock. Any suggestions for panels?


Theirs always this possible work around. Get the submission using common panel sizes and install similar panels later.

Per PGE:
Can I make changes to my application after submission?
* A one-time modification request will be allowed for:
• Like-for-like equipment replacements

 

[zanydroid]

Nope Ok, feeling deflated now. Spoke with A1SoalrStore prior to ordering QCell panels and all looked good. Made the order and 20 mins later they send an email saying order canceled, panels not in stock. Any suggestions for panels?

Not really. I go with whatever distributor has in stock/recommends (after checking size and color style)

The shutdown transmitter just needs to be tied into a 120 circuit that goes down when the switch is hit.

 

[zanydroid]

Per PGE:
Can I make changes to my application after submission?
* A one-time modification request will be allowed for:
• Like-for-like equipment replacements

I think you should pre-pay for equipment and have distributor hold it as much as possible. Especially around the items PG&E cares about (solar panels and inverters)

 

[400bird]

Renvu and CED greentec are local. You can see what they have available for pick up. Both have answered my call quickly in the past. CED doesn't have pricing online, but their pricing for panels was competitive when I called in.

 

[Kuma]

Renvu and CED greentec are local. You can see what they have available for pick up. Both have answered my call quickly in the past. CED doesn't have pricing online, but their pricing for panels was competitive when I called in.

Thank you! Have not heard of CED. The Revnu Newark Ca. warehouse is ~3+ hour drive. I would have to rent a truck and be concerned about packaging the panels unless the panels are put on a pallet, wrapped, and ready to go. Revnu wants $500 shipping. Maybe if I speak with them that is negotiable given the short distance. A local reseller only wants $245 for shipping from LA. It should be possible to hire a my own LTL shipper. I live 12 mins from Interstate 80.


I spoke with the planning dept. yesterday and a solar inspector told me that solar installations are to be by a certified installer or "maybe", I repeat maybe..., get approval by another bldg inspector. wtf - I wanted to say to her Im waiting for a call back by the approval person. I have pulled permits for many things including replacing a 50 year old 200 amp Zinsco service panel without any issues. And PGE and other California jurisdictions have no problems with owner installed systems.

The other issue, one which I knew but wanted to confirm with the bldg dept, is load calcs for the barn roof for installation. I built the barn and it was permitted as an ag building, no calcs required. I know how the barn is built and it will handle ~1,000 lbs distributed load.

Anyone know of a structural engineer with competitive, cheap, pricing?

 

[zanydroid]

I know how the barn is built and it will handle ~1,000 lbs distributed load.

Anyone know of a structural engineer with competitive, cheap, pricing?

I have unfortunately heard of some places in california that do not like owner builder work.

My city waives engineering stamps for certain kind of framing. EG if the framing spacing is close enough and the wood is big enough.

UniRac, IronRidge etc would be happy to generate and stamp plans for you, that cover the panels and racking part of the install. They can also generate plans for the full thing including electrical. I’m pretty sure the stamped structural plans will require already picked solar panels part numbers. They would be happy to figure out the layout for you, or you can give them a sketch.

 

[Kuma]

Update for anyone that stumbles upon this in the near future. I never spoke with or got a call back from the county bldg dept despite leaving messages nor did I have time make a visit. In fairness to them, this short notice NEM debacle has inundated them both in the office and site inspections. The sellers of solar have been closing sales in big numbers, historically speaking. One person said he made 4 sales in one day. Regarding an owner installing solar here, I pulled the Solar Building Permit and it clearly allows owner builder on the application.

Also, spoke with a PGE rep and they assured me that NEM 2 applications submitted on time and later rejected, even rejections after April 14th, will remain in the NEM2 process as long as the application is resubmitted with the necessary corrections.

Lastly, the PGE basic SLD is all that is required.

 

[frenchybull]

How does one go about resuming an application. PG&E site won't allow me to complete a incomplete application. Do I need to start all over again?

 

[zanydroid]

I was able to pause/resume my application over there course of weeks.

 

[400bird]

I think there's a link elsewhere on the page to view and add documents. If you don't see it, post more of the page with your info blocked out.

 

[Drivewaybeer]

Hi I'm almost complete with my PG&E interconnect application and I'm confused on a couple points, do I need to upload "Site Plans and Diagrams" if I am using the basic Single Line Diagram provided by PG&E?

also I dont know if I need to click yes or no on the question "AC Disconnect Variance requested?"

Thanks much for the help

 

[Hedges]

Basic SLD, no other drawings needed.

Can you put a knife switch disconnect within 10' of meter? If so, no variance.

 

[heyraam]

Also, spoke with a PGE rep and they assured me that NEM 2 applications submitted on time and later rejected, even rejections after April 14th, will remain in the NEM2 process as long as the application is resubmitted with the necessary corrections.

Thank you, Kuma for this information. I submitted my application today and was wondering about rejection or review scenario.

BTW I marked it as "self install". My plan was to work with a friend or handy man to install panels and work with a electriician to install all components and wiring. Will PGE have a problem with my approach?

 

[zanydroid]

BTW I marked it as "self install". My plan was to work with a friend or handy man to install panels and work with a electriician to install all components and wiring. Will PGE have a problem with my approach?

PG&E doesn't enforce any building codes directly other than Green Book up to your service connection point and their regulations about interconnected generation facilities. But they require you to get the install permitted.

In my city we have to fill out an owner-builder attestation when we file the permit, and that will tell you the pitfalls with what you want to do. Basically they give you a big pile of disclaimers that you have then sign and submit saying that you're aware of all that stuff. Off hand.

• project is over value cutoff where you have to use licensed subcontractors by state law
• you take on worker's comp risk
• you take on liability risk if your friend gets injured (and if they get medical attention their medical insurance company will investigate)
• you take on liability risk if there's a workmanship issue. a contractor would have commercial liability insurance etc.

etc etc. (Some of that isn't on owner-builder form, more general guidance on how liability works in the US)

Call up your city for a copy of this.

 

[Hedges]

I marked it as "self install". My plan was to work with a friend or handy man to install panels and work with a electriician to install all components and wiring.

Greatest risk would be "handyman" on your roof.
If you pay someone for work, he is your employee. Roofing is one of the most dangerous trades (so much so that at one point, worker's compensation premium equaled 100% of wages.)

The last time I had employees doing construction, I purchased a worker's compensation policy from State Fund. There is some minimum premium you pay up front (was $700 back then 20 years ago), and you report wages, pay additional premium if necessary.
Worker's comp is no-fault insurance, relieving you of liability. If you don't have that insurance, you are liable for all losses.

I would think you could do your own conduit and wire, perhaps except for final connection to breaker panel. Although that too is easy enough, just turn off main breaker and confirm with meter there is no voltage.

If a friend helps, not for pay, I think your homeowner's liability would protect you. Only to policy amount, and you are not shielded from liability like with worker's comp.