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diy solar

Net Metering under attack, again....

I'm all for solar but I'm not willing to let hundreds of thousands of jobs be lost over it.
Hundreds of thousands of jobs were not lost when we embraced the loom over the spinning wheel. Hundreds of thousands of jobs were not lost when computers replaced the paper ledger. Hundreds of thousands of jobs will not be lost when we replace fossil fuels with green energy: wind/tidal/solar/geothermal/hydrothermal equipment manufacturing, green energy consulting, testing, science and development, 3rd world support, nuclear construction, offshore maintenance, hundreds of millions of EV cars/trucks/trains/planes/busses/bikes. If we as a species, as a collection of governments, fully embraced just the Paris climate agreements, there'd be more jobs available than people to fill them.

Fossil fuels are dead. And the quicker, as a species, we realise that the better off we will all be.
 
...Do you realize how many jobs are lost if you do away with fossil fuels...

It's got to happen eventually. Not because of global warming or because we're running out, but because it just costs more than alternatives. Solar is already cheaper than fossil fuels, it's only energy storage tech holding us back and those numbers are just about to flip if they haven't already.
 
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Sorry, what were we talking about, again?
It's about fossil fuel companies trying to do away with Net Metering to scare some folks away from solar and potentially slow their ultimate demise.
 
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For example, earlier I wrote:
... according to this it's $27/W to renovate an old coal power plant to modern standards....
That project should be killed. Why? Simple Math:

At the scale of the coal plant, the prices for a solar replacement are probably:
  • Solar installed: $2/W
  • Battery installed: $0.40/W (battery is probably $0.20/W, doubled for installed cost (labor, wire, fuses).
Assume an insolation of 6 and a 3 day reserve, so 1W x 6/d x 3d =18W storage per solar watt.

so $2.00 + 18 x $.40 = $9.20/W which 34% the cost comparison doesn't consider the cost of the coal or manpower to run / maintain the plant.

Although storage prices do need to come down more. This article says it costs $3.50/W (US) to build a new coal powerplant. Although if the battery prices drop as predicted here to $0.10/W in 2023 and it's just double for an installed cost, then with a 4.5 insolation for 3d that's $4.70/W.
 
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That is so unfortunate.

It seems that in the future we will be forced to go off-grid 100%. Use the grid as a back up means of power.
That what i do, I got a 3 bedroom house with 2 solar systems 12 (200 ah lithium) and 24 volt (300 ah lithium) i only turn the grid on for 220 dryer but use a cloth line. I only have to turn grid with if no sun for 3 days
 
I'm sure this type of assessment is different by location, but here they can only stand at the street and look into your property. They will ask to come in, but you don't have to let them. Nobody does. They can't see my stuff from the street, but they ARE in range. :cool:
Where I live the County Assessor uses Google Earth to see if you have built anything new and didn't tell them.
I run my two split A/C units exclusively on solar, but the rest of the house is on utility power; for the moment.
My last bill for electricity used was $28.91, but after they added all their fees, cost factors, taxes and compulsory charities it ended up at $49.92:( (It used to be around the $120 mark before I connected the A/C units to solar)
When I'm off grid and they try and tax me for the system I intend to tie them up in court for decades, as they are trying to tax sunshine.
 
Do you realize how many jobs are lost if you do away with fossil fuels. A very big part of the US economy is from the energy sector. I'm all for solar but I'm not willing to let hundreds of thousands of jobs be lost over it. I believe a happy medium can be found if people would just work together for a change.

Greg
I wonder if the makers of horse drawn buggies said something similar when Henry Ford opened his first factory?
 
Where I live the County Assessor uses Google Earth to see if you have built anything new and didn't tell them.
I run my two split A/C units exclusively on solar, but the rest of the house is on utility power; for the moment.
My last bill for electricity used was $28.91, but after they added all their fees, cost factors, taxes and compulsory charities it ended up at $49.92:( (It used to be around the $120 mark before I connected the A/C units to solar)
When I'm off grid and they try and tax me for the system I intend to tie them up in court for decades, as they are trying to tax sunshine.

Well I'm glad I'm in the boonies because they never update Google Earth here. If the building is small enough you can always say that it's not on a permanent foundation and therefore not subject to taxes. They can't determine that from an aerial photo.
 
I wonder if the makers of horse drawn buggies said something similar when Henry Ford opened his first factory?

No, not even close... At the time the general opinion was [ref]:
You’re crazy if you think this fool contraption you’ve been wasting your time on will ever displace the horse.
 
Do you realize how many jobs are lost if you do away with fossil fuels. A very big part of the US economy is from the energy sector. I'm all for solar but I'm not willing to let hundreds of thousands of jobs be lost over it. I believe a happy medium can be found if people would just work together for a change.

Greg
That isn’t the point.
Legislation is restricting and killing the solar incentive, but insisting higher fuel economy, and lower carbon footprint...

It doesn’t make sense.

Either reduce carbon, or don’t.

what is the point of all the tax breaks for solar installs, if the gubbmnt is just going to kill any payback from it...
 
Not even close to being the same analogy.
Maybe not, but it is an example of a diseruptive technology changing an industry, You do not have to worry about the government doing away with fossil fuels. There will always be a need for petroleum products to make plastic and chemicals. I think the big change is going to come about because of economics. Just look at the unemployement in the industry now based on a drop in demand.
 
Well I'm glad I'm in the boonies because they never update Google Earth here. If the building is small enough you can always say that it's not on a permanent foundation and therefore not subject to taxes. They can't determine that from an aerial photo.
You would be surprised what you can see in a .25 foot resolution aerial image.
 
You would be surprised what you can see in a .25 foot resolution aerial image.
I once saw an aerial image of a house I owned years ago and there was a strange car parked in the driveway whiile my wife was home and I was at work. Never did figure that one out. ;)
 
Solar $9.20/W

$3.50/W ... coal

I think that coal plant for $3.50/W will produce 24 Wh in a day, while your PV plant for $9.20/W will only produce 5.5 Wh/day. So before counting the cost of coal mining, capital investment in PV is 11.5 times as much as in the coal plant.

I favor using as much of the alternative energy as possible at the moment it is used, minimize batteries or other storage.
 
I think that coal plant for $3.50/W will produce 24 Wh in a day, while your PV plant for $9.20/W will only produce 5.5 Wh/day. So before counting the cost of coal mining, capital investment in PV is 11.5 times as much as in the coal plant.

In the post you quoted, that was factored in using batteries to provide power while the sun didn't shine, it's why the solar costs were so high.

The $3.50/W for coal was just the capitol cost of a new coal plant, it didn't include fuel or maintenance costs over 25 years (sort of a best-case cost scenario). It was the low end compared to $27/W to renovate an old coal plant. So, solar with 3 days batteries backup came in at $9.20/W using today's commercial scale pricing and fell somewhere between the two. Don't take the numbers to literally, it's just a quick & dirty analysis, it was just meant as a comparison of solar vs coal capitol costs (ideally solar has zero fuel costs and lower maintenance costs, so operational costs should be favorable).

To recap, Solar by itself is only about $2/W installed at commercial scale. The $9.20/W included the cost of both Solar installed and 3 days of batteries installed that captured 100% of the possible solar energy and an insolation of 6 so it could compete at providing 24x7 power.

You used 5.5 Wh/d (I used 6), but six was a worst-case scenario.

For example, if you go with 5.5 than you need less batteries so the $/W comes down. At the volume pricing of $0.40/W for batteries installed; for each watt of solar you'd need: 1W solar x 5.5 Wh/d x 3 days storage x $0.40 / W batteries + $2/W solar = $8.60/W. If you stayed with 5.5 and went for 24 hours only, it would be $4.20/W, and if you had 48 hours backup it would be $6.40/W. How many days of backup a commercial solar plant would actually need to viably replace a coal power plant depends on their weather patterns and the cost/reliability of imported power.
 
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Did your calculation include installing 4 W (peak) of PV to produce 24 Wh/day of power, compared to installing 1W (peak) of coal plant to produce 24 Wh/day?

By the time solar thermal plants came on line, PV was cheaper. Solar thermal is now promoted based on its ability to produce power during the new peak times after the sun goes down.

To supply present usage patterns around the clock, significant amounts of power are needed while the sun isn't shining, or isn't high in the sky. Batteries are reaching the point of being cost break-even for consumers, as PV did a decade or two ago. There may never be enough batteries to supply the U.S. grid overnight, given quantities of elements such as lithium or lead required.

Other energy storage can include pumped hydro.

I think fossil fuel plants can can fill in during a transition period, supplying power when PV and wind don't. Cost will be higher if they operate at full capacity only 12 to 18 hours per day. California and its cities are banning natural gas in new home construction. That forces more loads onto the electric grid, including nighttime heating. I think they should have allowed hybrid appliances which could use electric or gas. At the same time, oil wells are flaring off gas because they have no market and no transport infrastructure.

I think enabling loads when there is surplus renewable electric energy is the way to go. Domestic heating with thermal storage tanks, refrigeration with with thermal storage tanks or phase-change materials (e.g. salt water ice), electric vehicle charging and water pumping.

Electric cars are an application where hybrid fits well. For a fixed amount of lithium you can build one Tesla with 280 miles range, offsetting the 50 or 100 mile commute of one person. Alternatively, you could build 7 Chevy Volts with 40 mile all electric range, offsetting 280 miles out of the 350 or 700 miles they commute. You can save more gas with many hybrids than with one all-electric.
 
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