New help with a Moes auto transfer switch..

[wiseacre]

@Will Prowse
after 5 years and some damning reviews and critical comments on the dangers of this unit a update would be appreciated

 

[Zwy]

why do you say my inverter has a transfer switch?

From this post you stated:

"Is it possible to get the inverter in phase with the grid power? The model I have switches from grid power to inverter power when the batteries are full and from inverter power to grid power when the batteries are discharged at a pre-programmed rate."

If your inverter does this, it has an internal transfer switch. It allows for bypass operation or inverter operation with transfer time of UPS quality.

Unless you inverter doesn't have this capability?

Is it an ATS? If so, why did Will install it? And if it is so dangerous, why does Will continue to advertise it by keeping the video up? I want to have my power switch from solar to grid, automatically when the battery gets low and switch back when the battery is charged back up. Does the inverter do this? I don't think so.

You stated in that post it did. What inverter do you have? That would answer some questions.

 

[Will Prowse]

I want one because Will Prowse said they were "awesome" and I used to respect what he said as gospel. Not so anymore with all the controversy over this Moes ATS. I mean, who do I believe, you or Will? I don't know anymore.

Yeah I loved mine and used it in my system for about a year. I haven't heard a thing until reading this thread.

 

[Will Prowse]

I think you shouldn’t be using this.

It is sortofa changeover switch with parameters.

Please post picture(s) of “little adapter thing.” In fact post pictures of whole thing because I’m not sure what you are talking about.

It's just a screw terminal for the DC input. Comes with the unit

 

[Will Prowse]

I have a 24v 2000 watt giandel inverter. I don't know if it will do what an ATS does or not. I never thought it did until you guys said it might. It's the same brand inverter Will used and I ask again, if the inverter already does this then why did Will put one on his system and say "How cool is this" and then go on and on about "awesome" it was? I assumed I needed one. I better need one. lol. I am brand new to solar and I rely heavily on what Will says. I even built my system almost exclusively on Wills videos. I guess that was wrong of me now that I know a little more. But the ATS is finally working and the sun is going down and soon it should transfer to grid power. Fingers crossed. Here's a picture.

When did you buy it? The updated model is grey.

Yeah I love mine. It's a simple voltage sensitive relay. I didn't have any issues and I think I still have the device.

You're going to discredit all of my videos because I had a good time with an electrical component? Really? This device is dead simple and I don't see what the issue is. It's just a switch

 

[Will Prowse]

Good news, I got it working. It turns out those two wires on that little insert thing was wired backwards, by me of course. But it's working. Thank you to everybody that chimed in to help.

First off that is a huge mess of wires. Can you rebuild it so we can see where everything is going. That doesn't look good.

 

[Will Prowse]

@Will Prowse
after 5 years and some damning reviews and critical comments on the dangers of this unit a update would be appreciated

Can you post them here, I haven't seen them. I also know they have a new updated model. I have the new one in my shop somewhere. I never had any issues with my first unit that I used in the video. Very simple switch

 

[Will Prowse]

I think you shouldn’t be using this.

It is sortofa changeover switch with parameters.

Please post picture(s) of “little adapter thing.” In fact post pictures of whole thing because I’m not sure what you are talking about.

No you need to use it

 

[Will Prowse]

I've searched here before in the archives and looked at reviews online. Many say the Moes works fine, others suffered catastrophic inverter loss in the process or had notice from grid backfeed without an interconnection agreement from the utility.

His video was 5 years ago. If you scroll thru the comments, you find comments like this one.

"I purchased one. The ATS fed 240V mains directly into my Giant 3000W pure sine wave inverter, the first tell were the capacitors exploding. Want an inverter that sounds like a shoot out with .22LR rounds? Need the excitement of smoke, sparks and flames, then this little baby, made strictly to comply with the Chinese electrical standards 'U Like Explosions' (ULE), is the one for you."

Then we find posts like this one https://diysolarforum.com/threads/automatic-transfer-switches.35728/post-474296 where the person who did the review found the contacts can weld together. Scrolling thru that thread, you find members had multiple inverter failures. I'm certain more can be found.

Knowing this, would I use this device? No, I prefer to minimize potential failures as part of risk management. As more than one person/review indicates there might be a problem, I won't accept that risk. You might be willing to accept that risk if you also have other risk management factors involved. That is up to you to decide. It is possible there could be installer error or Moes changed the product since then.

I have no need for this device. I again have to ask why you think you need this device if your inverter has a built in transfer switch that accomplishes the same thing. What is the intended use?

Inverter loss? From what exactly? Can you guys tag me in the posts when you see them? I'm trying to manage spam on this forum 247 and it's hard for me to know of information unless someone tags me in it. When I make a video review then I check the forum to see if anyone's having issues, but I haven't searched for this transfer switch ever. I had no clue people were having issues with it

 

[wiseacre]

Can you post them here, I haven't seen them. I also know they have a new updated model. I have the new one in my shop somewhere. I never had any issues with my first unit that I used in the video. Very simple switch

critical comments/warnings from the forum
After review I see there's only one member that adamantly disapproves of the MOES

below is from timselectric on this post https://diysolarforum.com/threads/moes-ats-11kw-bat-80a.66365/https://diysolarforum.com/threads/moes-ats-11kw-bat-80a.66365/

The only recommendation I can make is to get rid of the Moe's. They're not real transfer switches. (Just relays without interlock) They can get stuck and damage your inverter. It has happened to other members.' -/-
There are no safety interlocks between the input sources. Both can get connected at the same time.
And connecting the AC output from an inverter to the grid or generator will damage it. -/-
A real transfer switch has safety interlocks to keep the two sources isolated at all times.
The Moe's is just two relays that are selected by the controls. When one fails closed. The other can still be activated. This is when the damage happens. -/-
To be a true transfer switch. It needs both electrical and mechanical interlocks. Electrical interlock keeps both from being selected at the same time. But a mechanical interlock makes it physically impossible for one to connect, unless the other is disconnected.

from tims again on another post

I've only seen a few complaints about fried inverters, I imagine if they are as dangerous as stated I'd had seen more with a few fires thrown in for good measure.

More than likely. The people who didn't listen to the warnings. Were too embarrassed to return.
You have been very lucky, so far.
When (not if) yours fails. Please join us in trying to save others.

Tim again:

) Given the dangers due the lack of mechanical interlock, what safety mechanisms/devices can be used in conjunction this ATS to minimize the risk of a relay becoming unresponsive resulting in the inverter being connected to grid AC?

The garbage can.

Not the least bit helpful

It's actually the best advice you will get.
But proceed at your own risk.
And please take pictures of the damage, when it happens.

--------
As far as fried inverters, I didn't see any posted but I didn't dig deeply into all the MOES posts
There are MOES product reviews that say their inverter was fried (but how many were user error?)
As I've said, I'd expect to see a large number of them if the unit was as dangerous as tim implies
As for tim, I respect his knowledge and opinion and believe his warnings are based on fact,
on the other hand I've had no problem in 4 years and tend to think if it was that bad it would have been discontinued long ago because of catastrophic failures

That said, I'll continue to have concerns with my MOES until someone else knowledgeable says different.
Meanwhile I'll continue to pine for a SolArk 5k to replace my Eco Worthy 3500w, 24v (dumb as me) inverter

 

[Will Prowse]

Hello Will. I am very happy to see you here. Oh my, the ATS just switched to grid power but turned itself off along with the inverter and the charge controller. Everything is off except the load. I turned the battery off and unplugged everything the ATS was plugged into, the inverter, the power to grid plug and the female load plug. I hope I said that right.
Back to saying hello. Hello Will, you are my favorite diy YouTuber. I have been checking out your videos for almost 2 years on and off,, trying to get the confidence to build this system. I finally did it and Will shoots me down for messy wiring. lol. I started out trying to make it nice but the more I had to put on there, the messier it got. Sorry for the mess Will.
I wired the little adapter plug thing on the far right of the ATS , the black and white ones, I wired the black wire to the black buss bar and put the red one on the breaker switch to the charge controller. Is this OK or is this maybe why it turned off while making the switch? I am not even sure the battery was low enough to switch because I just checked it 30 minutes before it shut off and it was reading 24.4v and was set to switch at 22v. I have two 12v 100ah batteries wired in series. The load was 400 watts constant. What do you think? Very nice to meet you btw. Edit: I said I put the red wire on the breaker switch but it's a white wire as you can see.

No worries. Can you wire it up and post pictures of it when it's done? So we can clearly see each individual wire.

Why did it turn off? Can you post pictures of all voltages on the system. This is a very simple device so this should be easy to solve.

 

[Will Prowse]

Hello Will. I am very happy to see you here. Oh my, the ATS just switched to grid power but turned itself off along with the inverter and the charge controller. Everything is off except the load. I turned the battery off and unplugged everything the ATS was plugged into, the inverter, the power to grid plug and the female load plug. I hope I said that right.
Back to saying hello. Hello Will, you are my favorite diy YouTuber. I have been checking out your videos for almost 2 years on and off,, trying to get the confidence to build this system. I finally did it and Will shoots me down for messy wiring. lol. I started out trying to make it nice but the more I had to put on there, the messier it got. Sorry for the mess Will.
I wired the little adapter plug thing on the far right of the ATS , the black and white ones, I wired the black wire to the black buss bar and put the red one on the breaker switch to the charge controller. Is this OK or is this maybe why it turned off while making the switch? I am not even sure the battery was low enough to switch because I just checked it 30 minutes before it shut off and it was reading 24.4v and was set to switch at 22v. I have two 12v 100ah batteries wired in series. The load was 400 watts constant. What do you think? Very nice to meet you btw. Edit: I said I put the red wire on the breaker switch but it's a white wire as you can see.

And I'm not sure how good your connections are. Post pictures with a volt meter showing us what voltage you have at those terminals. Hard to criticize a device if we don't know what voltage is present at the device. Or if the wiring is not clear

 

[12VoltInstalls]

First off that is a huge mess of wires. Can you rebuild it so we can see where everything is going. That doesn't look good.

It's just a screw terminal for the DC input. Comes with the unit

Understood.
Just to clarify:
My reference to the poster “not using” it was based on an apparent lack of understanding of electricity by the user and lack of equipment details/photos - not a reference to the Moes.

I wasn’t being mean, just frustrated that I couldn’t put anything in context.

Thank you for joining in!

 

[Zwy]

Inverter loss? From what exactly? Can you guys tag me in the posts when you see them? I'm trying to manage spam on this forum 247 and it's hard for me to know of information unless someone tags me in it. When I make a video review then I check the forum to see if anyone's having issues, but I haven't searched for this transfer switch ever. I had no clue people were having issues with it

I had to do some digging to find the thread I referenced in another discussion about this ATS but here it is. https://diysolarforum.com/threads/ats-causing-power-surge-inverter-damage.22675/ From what I have read there are a pair of relays inside and one relay is to grid power and the other would be the inverter output. There is not an interlock to prevent both relays from being energized.

My thoughts on why 2 relays without an interlock? The ATS does not synchronize to grid phase, instead it relies on the pair of relays to enable quick switch time in the low millisecond range, similar to the time frame a true UPS switches. A UPS will synchronize to grid phase while this unit attempts to time the relay switching fast enough to act like a UPS. @RCinFLA posted this response in that thread and he explains it quite well.

This is the reason these will blow an inverter and in that thread you will find some examples. I think you should maybe update on these ATS's, I would never use one knowing how these are built and operate.

 

[Zwy]

I have a 24v 2000 watt giandel inverter. I don't know if it will do what an ATS does or not. I never thought it did until you guys said it might. It's the same brand inverter Will used and I ask again, if the inverter already does this then why did Will put one on his system and say "How cool is this" and then go on and on about "awesome" it was? I assumed I needed one. I better need one. lol. I am brand new to solar and I rely heavily on what Will says. I even built my system almost exclusively on Wills videos. I guess that was wrong of me now that I know a little more. But the ATS is finally working and the sun is going down and soon it should transfer to grid power. Fingers crossed. Here's a picture.

I missed the prior photos and now understand my confusion and resulting question. I thought you were stating your inverter had a built in transfer switch but instead you were referring to the Moes ATS.

The Moes ATS does not synchronize to grid power. In order for any inverter to synchronize to grid power to enable in phase switching, it would have to be connected to grid power. The Moes ATS would need communication to the inverter in order for it to allow synchronization to grid phase.

My suggestion to you if you need an inverter that functions as a UPS when switching is to purchase an AIO that has an internal transfer switch and the inverter can be synchronized to grid power. Something like the EG4, Growatt, Sungold,Victron or just about any AIO that contains an internal transfer switch.

 

[Samsonite801]

...I am returning this Moe's and resigning from the forum. I have caused enough trouble already.

It's no trouble, and why don't you stick around and let's keep having fun and learning together? This forum has a lot of wonderful energy to it! For everyone wanting to keep learning, including me (I'm still learning everyday)...