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New Lux Power LXP-LB-US 12k / GSL-H-12KLV-US with 200A AC Passthrough Current (US Market)

The manual does appear to indicate a bi-directional AC input..
what about batteries. It says make sure the lithium ion battery is compatible? Can DIY LiFepo4 cells be used?
 

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what about batteries. It says make sure the lithium ion battery is compatible? Can DIY LiFepo4 cells be used?
As long as the BMS uses a familiar protocol to the inverter.
EG: I think/hope the seplos BMS using the pylon can bus protocol should work.
I ordered a luxpower and already have the seplos. Will follow up once everything arrives and is hooked up.
 
As long as the BMS uses a familiar protocol to the inverter.
EG: I think/hope the seplos BMS using the pylon can bus protocol should work.
I ordered a luxpower and already have the seplos. Will follow up once everything arrives and is hooked up.
The bms has to communicate with this inverter? Sometimes lead acid can be selected to avoid that. Would it be possible to do that with this inverter and still use LiFepo4?
 
Shipping is approx $650USD via air. I don't think they ship it any other way currently, unless you buy a lot of pieces, in which case they ship by boat. My original shipment from them, earlier in the year, was 5 pieces that weighed 1100lbs after crating. So, it was shipped via boat and costs $2200 for shipping direct to my door.
Wow that gets a bit expensive... I may need to look closer at Growatt again 3800 bucks is pretty pricey for an experimental unir...
 
The bms has to communicate with this inverter? Sometimes lead acid can be selected to avoid that. Would it be possible to do that with this inverter and still use LiFepo4?
Absolutely. but you will miss out on a lot of things.
Voltage drop is much more indication of SoC with Lead acid than with li-ion batteries.
So if you choose lead acid and put it voltage for full/empty you will not get full use of your battery capacity.
My current inverter communicating with my current batteries eg knows I have 4 batteries in parallel and adjusts charge current.
If for some reason 1 battery would disconnect itself, it would auto regulate the max charge/discharge current.

I would prefer with BMS communication.
 
Absolutely. but you will miss out on a lot of things.
Voltage drop is much more indication of SoC with Lead acid than with li-ion batteries.
So if you choose lead acid and put it voltage for full/empty you will not get full use of your battery capacity.
My current inverter communicating with my current batteries eg knows I have 4 batteries in parallel and adjusts charge current.
If for some reason 1 battery would disconnect itself, it would auto regulate the max charge/discharge current.

I would prefer with BMS communication.
Well that’s good. Many inverters are starting that proprietary battery BS..
I have never had battery/bms communication with an inverter. I might like it if I had it but I haven’t needed it yet. I think I have been getting full use of my battery capacity without bms/inverter communication. I don’t discharge my batteries to 0% anyways..
I kinda understand what your saying regarding voltage drop with such a flat part of the voltage curve for LiFePo4. But doesn’t lead acid have more of a voltage drop when a load turns on than Li-ion? With the previous bms cells I had voltage was a very good indicator of SOC..
To be clear though if using lead acid profile, equalize can be turned off and the voltages for float and absorb can be changed to whatever is wanted?
 
Well that’s good. Many inverters are starting that proprietary battery BS..
I have been surprised by the amount of protocols (hardware: RS485 & CAN BUS) and the software protocols that are shown:
I think a lot in the industry have chosen for _a_ standard: Pylontech CANBUS protocol
From a quick find these inverters all work with that protocol:


Deye
Foxess
Goodwe
Growatt
IMEON
LUXPOWER
Renac
Sermatec
SMA (probably european inverters only)
Sofar
Solis
TBB POWER
Victron

and the pylontech RS-485 protocol is at least supported by:
Growatt
Phocos
Voitronic

I have never had battery/bms communication with an inverter. I might like it if I had it but I haven’t needed it yet. I think I have been getting full use of my battery capacity without bms/inverter communication. I don’t discharge my batteries to 0% anyways..
Excellent. If it works for you, don't change it!
I kinda understand what your saying regarding voltage drop with such a flat part of the voltage curve for LiFePo4. But doesn’t lead acid have more of a voltage drop when a load turns on than Li-ion?
Yep, higher internal resistance.
A BMS tracks how many kWh have been drawn from a full position and doesn't depend on Voltage/load condition.
I think it is just more accurate.
With the previous bms cells I had voltage was a very good indicator of SOC..
To be clear though if using lead acid profile, equalize can be turned off and the voltages for float and absorb can be changed to whatever is wanted?
I think there are enough threads on this forum about that.
I might remember wrong, so please do check it out yourself, but if I remember correctly, float & absorb should be set to same as 100% full voltage.
 
Just got this from GSL Ive read through this thread seems like numbers are all over the place with these things from cost to shipping... Im assuming this shipping quote doesnt include customs etc????

Air shipping cost is USD 580 for 1 pc 12Kw inverter,7-10 days in transit ,the unit
price is USD 3100/pc for 12KW inverter, we have stock right now,if you are ready
to pay,i can make an invoice to you.
Thank you
 
Just got this from GSL Ive read through this thread seems like numbers are all over the place with these things from cost to shipping... Im assuming this shipping quote doesnt include customs etc????

Air shipping cost is USD 580 for 1 pc 12Kw inverter,7-10 days in transit ,the unit
price is USD 3100/pc for 12KW inverter, we have stock right now,if you are ready
to pay,i can make an invoice to you.
Thank you
Mine was shipped air and I got it in two days for $650 to a super remote area of New Mexico. Didn't have to pay anything for customs.
 
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The manual does appear to indicate a bi-directional AC input..
what about batteries. It says make sure the lithium ion battery is compatible? Can DIY LiFepo4 cells be used?
Hi Cheap 4-Life,
I specifically asked Nick Pan for a quote on the GSL power wall batteries and if they are compatible with the GSL-H-12-KLV-US hybrid inverter. Please verify for yourself if you want to purchase, but this is the answer that I received.
1.please find enclosed data sheet of 10kWh (51.2v200ah)&14.3kWh(51.2v280ah) power wall and picture.
2.Price
10kWh powerwall:FOB 2,480USD/unit
14.3kWh powerwall:FOB 3,819USD/unit
6500 cycles at 80%DOD, 15 years warranty;16 pcs parallel connection at max.Cables are included. Compatible with 12kw hybrid inverter by Canbus.
NICK PAN | SHENZHEN GSL ENERGY CO., LTD.
Whatsapp&Wechat: +86 19926456603 | Email: nick.pan@gsl-energy.com
 

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A single GSL-H-12KLV-US when off grid is limited to 12,000 watts and the UPS is limited to 12,000 watts or 240V@50A. If we connect 20KW 400AH batteries to the battery connection, the UPS maximum continuous current is still limited to 240V@50A. In this scenario, if you connect a 60A load, you will trip the inverter even with fully charge 400AH batteries.

If we connect a second GSL-H-12KLV-US hybrid inverter in parallel. This will provide 24,000 watts or 240V@100A and now the 60A will not trip the inverters in parallel. Each inverter will now see an approximate 30A load. Our off-grid capacity is now 24,000 watts or 240V@100A.

On grid with 2 inverters, we still have 200A relays, but when wired in parallel could pass 200A each or in parallel 400A.

Most people on the DIY Solar Forum are much more knowledgeable than me, so I would appreciate a confirmation or an explanation why not.
 
Realize that for that amount of cycles you are "only" capable of
10kwh x 0.8 = 8kWh for the small one
14.3kWh x 0.8 = 11.44 kWh usable for the inverter from the larger battery.

Make sure you have enough storage energy hooked up to your inverter.
I didn't know that. My plan is to have (2) power walls either 20KW 400AH or 28 KW 560AH.

However, I'm going to be on-grid even with the batteries. My intent is to only use them during the frequent power outages, which are usually only a few minutes and rarely last a few hours. In 16 years my power outages has never exceeded 12 hours. I intend to set the batteries at a discharge range of 75% to 25%.

My intent is to try and extend the batteries life for the long term. If we have a major power outage for an extended period from a major natural or man-made disaster, I want my family to have some power for the necessities. During that period, I will set the batteries range to their maximum around 10% to 90%. For me to change my GT system to a hybrid system is like insurance for electricity and I hope that I never need it for a major event.
 
Just got this from GSL Ive read through this thread seems like numbers are all over the place with these things from cost to shipping... Im assuming this shipping quote doesnt include customs etc????

Air shipping cost is USD 580 for 1 pc 12Kw inverter,7-10 days in transit ,the unit
price is USD 3100/pc for 12KW inverter, we have stock right now,if you are ready
to pay,i can make an invoice to you.
Thank you
If you order DDP (Delivery and Duty Paid), then the price quoted should be your total cost.

My country charge 7% duty, which is actually the same rate as our sales tax. Once I knew that, I didn't feel so penalized for buying overseas. If I bought it here, I would need to pay the same rate in sales tax.

If you live in an area where there is no sale tax on solar energy products, you might want to check with customs about tax on solar energy products. It is possible that the shipment might be exempt, if you ask the right questions. I asked and there are pending legislation to exempt solar energy products, but it is not law yet and I do need to pay the 7% duty charge. There are other countries where they are exempt.
 
Don't forget to include payment fees for your payment method of choice. This can add another 3%-5% or so (IIRC), I don't think I'd ever consider buying anything from China without some payment protection (via CC, PP, etc).
 
Read this:

I still would not parallel relays.
Again, I didn't know that. I knew of the issue, but for some reason, I thought it was a DC issue causing contacts to damage or welding contacts closed. I will reread the article and/or other articles to make sure that this issue does in fact applies to 240VAC. The article also said that the relays would need to work together, hybrid inverters have a master with the rest as slaves working together.

I also thought the limitation was the hybrid inverter UPS off-grid rating of 12KW or 240@50A not the actual 200A bypass relay. The relay is rated at 200A and will bypass 190A when in on-grid mode or no power outage. Also when the inverter is in off-grid mode, the relay is opened until the power returns.
1665898314019.png
Makes me ask the question, what the point of paralleling 10 hybrid inverters, if you are limited to 12000 watts or 240V@50A when in off-grid.

Forgive my ignorance, I really don't understand and very much a novice about solar energy systems.
 
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Again, I didn't know that. I knew of the issue, but for some reason, I thought it was a DC issue causing contacts to damage or welding contacts closed.
Doesn't matter if it is AC or DC. Specs are specs.
I will reread the article and/or other articles to make sure that this issue does in fact applies to 240VAC. The article also said that the relays would need to work together, hybrid inverters have a master with the rest as slaves working together.
If you would have parallel relays and they would all really switch at the same time, technically it would be possible.
Lets say we have 300 amps flowing through 2x 200 amp relays in parallel. Let's assume they are perfectly balanced 150 through A & 150 through B.
They both get the "open" command so the 300 amps need to be interrupted.
When relay A opens and interrupts the 150 amp flowing through it. And for some reason relay B is 1 milli second slower to open than relay A, all 300 amps is flowing through relay B.
Relay B (rated 200 amps) now has to interrupt 300 amps and that will arc and is 50% above its rating.

I also thought the limitation was the hybrid inverter UPS off-grid rating of 12KW or 240@50A not the actual 200A bypass relay. The relay is rated at 200A and will bypass 190A when in on-grid mode or no power outage.
Technically with a 200 amp main breaker, the NEC says you are only allowed to pull 80% through that for a long time.
So 160 Amps is maximum, so the 190 from the relay already has a buffer.

Makes me ask the question, what the point of paralleling 10 hybrid inverters, if you are limited to 12000 watts or 240V@50A when in off-grid.

This is the situation with only 1 inverter:

My ASCII drawing are misformed by the forum software.
Looks great when you enter it, but IRL is looks like nothing.
Hence a screenshot from the edit mode:
Screenshot from 2022-10-15 22-46-09.png

From the left 200 amps max comes in from the grid. RELAY is closed and you can use up to (80% of) 200 amp on the output.

Grid goes down, relay OPENS, now the output of the inverter is no longer tied to the grid.
Whatever the inverter produces goes to the load (panel)
Limited to 50 amps max, coming from either PV and/or batteries

Now imagine 2 outputs of inverters hooked together: 2 x 50 amp =100 amp combined output , already 50% of grid
You can do the math:
3 inverters x 50 each = 150 amps capable
4 inverters x 50 each = 200 amps capable <- same as the grid.

More inverters are only needed if your load is more than 200 amp (eg 400 amp panel you would need 8 inverters)

Hope i explained this the right way.
 
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Grid goes down, relay OPENS, now the output of the inverter is no longer tied to the grid.
Whatever the inverter produces goes to the load (panel)
Limited to 50 amps max, coming from either PV and/or batteries

Now imagine 2 outputs of inverters hooked together: 2 x 50 amp =100 amp combined output , already 50% of grid
You can do the math:
3 inverters x 50 each = 150 amps capable
4 inverters x 50 each = 200 amps capable <- same as the grid.

More inverters are only needed if your load is more than 200 amp (eg 400 amp panel you would need 8 inverters)

Hope i explained this the right way.
Hopefully, your explanation above is a verification that I requested from a post that stated (2) GSL inverters in parallel provides 240V@100A.:

"A single GSL-H-12KLV-US when off grid is limited to 12,000 watts and the UPS is limited to 12,000 watts or 240V@50A. If we connect 20KW 400AH batteries to the battery connection, the UPS maximum continuous current is still limited to 240V@50A. In this scenario, if you connect a 60A load, you will trip the inverter even with fully charge 400AH batteries.

If we connect a second GSL-H-12KLV-US hybrid inverter in parallel. This will provide 24,000 watts or 240V@100A and now the 60A will not trip the inverters in parallel. Each inverter will now see an approximate 30A load. Our off-grid capacity is now 24,000 watts or 240V@100A."


Technically, the solar panels are connected to existing GT inverters and are simply AC couple to the (2) new GSL hybrid inverters and new batteries are connected to the (2) new GSL hybrid inverters. No solar panels are connected to the MPPTs on the (2) new GSL hybrid inverters.

In a power outage, the (2) GSL hybrid inverters are matching consumption or the actual load with the new batteries. The (2) GSL hybrid inverters are AC coupled to the existing GT inverters to control solar production as needed for the batteries on/off settings by varying the mini-grid frequency from 60 to 62.5 Hz. In reality the existing inverters production is first used by the load and what is left is used to charge the batteries. Once the batteries reach their programmed charge setting the existing inverters are turned off.

Again, I really do appreciate your help and insight. At times, I have a tendency to read what I want to read versus what it actually meant. I hope that this is not one of those times. Thanks, Steve
 
Hopefully, your explanation above is a verification that I requested from a post that stated (2) GSL inverters in parallel provides 240V@100A.:

Yep

"A single GSL-H-12KLV-US when off grid is limited to 12,000 watts and the UPS is limited to 12,000 watts or 240V@50A. If we connect 20KW 400AH batteries to the battery connection, the UPS maximum continuous current is still limited to 240V@50A. In this scenario, if you connect a 60A load, you will trip the inverter even with fully charge 400AH batteries.

If we connect a second GSL-H-12KLV-US hybrid inverter in parallel. This will provide 24,000 watts or 240V@100A and now the 60A will not trip the inverters in parallel. Each inverter will now see an approximate 30A load. Our off-grid capacity is now 24,000 watts or 240V@100A."
Spot on

Technically, the solar panels are connected to existing GT inverters and are simply AC couple to the (2) new GSL hybrid inverters and new batteries are connected to the (2) new GSL hybrid inverters. No solar panels are connected to the MPPTs on the (2) new GSL hybrid inverters.
Why wouldn't you do that?
The moment the grid disappears and the LP inverter(s) take over ( using the batteries) your AC coupled inverters will stop working.
Your current inverters will see the new grid from the LP and start a countdown of 300 secs/5 minutes before starting to help take over the load.
If/when you have PV hooked up to LP they immediately start helping.
At least consider hooking up 1 set of PV panels to the LP, maybe a second set as well and leave one set connected to your AC grid tied inverter.
In a power outage, the (2) GSL hybrid inverters are matching consumption or the actual load with the new batteries. The (2) GSL hybrid inverters are AC coupled to the existing GT inverters to control solar production as needed for the batteries on/off settings by varying the mini-grid frequency from 60 to 62.5 Hz.
But your current GT inverters will take 5 minutes pause before starting to help.

In reality the existing inverters production is first used by the load and what is left is used to charge the batteries. Once the batteries reach their programmed charge setting the existing inverters are turned off.
Not really, the freq will be moved out of spec so the GT inverters will back off. As soon as they come down within range they will assist again.
If they were turned off, they would do the 5 min wait again after being turned on again.
Again, I really do appreciate your help and insight. At times, I have a tendency to read what I want to read versus what it actually meant. I hope that this is not one of those times. Thanks, Steve
 
Why wouldn't you do that?
The moment the grid disappears and the LP inverter(s) take over ( using the batteries) your AC coupled inverters will stop working.
Your current inverters will see the new grid from the LP and start a countdown of 300 secs/5 minutes before starting to help take over the load.
If/when you have PV hooked up to LP they immediately start helping.
At least consider hooking up 1 set of PV panels to the LP, maybe a second set as well and leave one set connected to your AC grid tied inverter.

But your current GT inverters will take 5 minutes pause before starting to help.


Not really, the freq will be moved out of spec so the GT inverters will back off. As soon as they come down within range they will assist again.
If they were turned off, they would do the 5 min wait again after being turned on again.
Good to know that the new hybrid inverter must have solar panels that I can't simply AC couple with batteries to make the existing GT inverters work. I understood to AC couple that you needed batteries to cycle the AC couple inverters with the batteries state of charge but didn't know that the solar panels were also required to be connected to the hybrid inverter in order to make a mini-grid.

I erroneously assumed that the batteries with the hybrid inverter would discharge a pure sine wave for the AC couple GT inverters without needing solar panels connected to the MPPT on the hybrid inverter. I never AC couple, so I just now learning.

Maybe future inverters can simply AC couple only with batteries, but not the current GSL-H-12KLV-US hybrid inverter.
 
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