diy solar

diy solar

New NEC code makes it impossible for DIY systems to be compliant

Status
Not open for further replies.
I suspect you've already discovered after posting, but the NEC is a code and the state and city make the rules.
Most states are more or less stringent and may even contradict the NEC.

New York for instance, is much stricter.
(Ex: pvc pipe not allowed)
(Results of long-ago "Triangle Shirt factory" fire catastrophe)

An inspection by a LICENSED electrician is usually REQUIRED.
(unfortunately, they often charge whatever the DIY savings would be.)

Your insurance company, however, may insist on NEC compliance
regardless of Local rule laxity of NEC.

Ya' gotta use due diligence!
It can be worse than that. Individual inspectors can pretty much make up rules as they go and in most cities and towns the appeal process is so weak there is little you can do about it. Many (Most?) contractors won't fight the inspector because they know they will have to work with him on their next job and don't want him as an enemy.
 
I suspect you've already discovered after posting, but the NEC is a code and the state and city make the rules.
The way it works in California is that the State may make additions or delete provisions and adopt a California Code. Then each County and or City does the same so there can be subtle variations. Some variations are stronger and some may be weaker. They all technically take the form of Code adopted by the Authority Having Jurisdiction.
 
Went back and read most of this thread and then went and looked at Article 706. I think article 706 is limited to structure wiring (Bricks and Sticks) and most likely does not apply to RV wiring.
 
NEC Section 706.5 requires that other than lead-acid batteries, energy storage components shall be listed and labeled or self-contained energy storage systems shall be listed as a complete energy storage system.


I think everyone is reading this wrong...
I read it as following..

NEC Section 706.5 requires that other than lead acid batteries, energy storage components shall be listed and labeled  OR self-contained energy storage systems shall be listed as s a complete energy storage system.

Fully self contained systems are like sunverge 6848. Where they are selling a complete all in one system. Besides that everything else just have to bare the Ul stamp.
 
I think everyone is reading this wrong.
I have always read it as the ESS has to have the UL stamp. My interpretation is the entire ESS including the BMS, fixture, connecting bus bars and container has to have that stamp as an assembled device. My 3P16S pack of LF280s would be hard to transport as a unit. Is it your interpretation that assembling the pack on site would qualify for the UL stamp? I also understand that each AHJ can interpret NEC any way they want. I have not seen any examples of a less restrictive definition but I am open to hearing about one in my County. Do you have any examples? To be clear this does not apply to RVs, only residential systems under a building code.
 
Last edited:
I have always read it as the ESS has to have the UL stamp. My interpretation is the entire ESS including the BMS, fixture, connecting bus bars and container has to have that stamp as an assembled device. My 3P16S pack would be hard to transport as a unit. Is that your interpretation? I also understand that each AHJ can interpret NEC any way they want. I have not seen any examples of a less restrictive definition but I am open to hearing about one in my County. Do you have any examples?
I'm reading it the same as you.
And yes, each AHJ can interpret the NEC as they see fit.
 
And yes, each AHJ can interpret the NEC as they see fit.
So damn true!!! Some inspectors have no clue about how any of this works and just go by rules they have memorized.... and often they memorized it incorrectly or apply wrong rule to the situation at hand....and that is just for standard household wiring. The inspectors are slowly starting to understand solar and string inverters, so they are getting better. However, put a battery in the system and most of them are completely lost....but still have the authority to shut you down.

Don't get me wrong. when properly applied, code compliance is a good thing...... but the key point is 'properly applied'.
 
So damn true!!! Some inspectors have no clue about how any of this works and just go by rules they have memorized.... and often they memorized it incorrectly or apply wrong rule to the situation at hand....and that is just for standard household wiring. The inspectors are slowly starting to understand solar and string inverters, so they are getting better. However, put a battery in the system and most of them are completely lost....but still have the authority to shut you down.

Don't get me wrong. when properly applied, code compliance is a good thing...... but the key point is 'properly applied'.
I started my solar project intending to install a DIY fixed "Stand Alone" solar (ESS configuration with 3KW panels, 3KW inverter, 15kWh Lithium).
Designed in accordance with NEC 690 and 710 "Stand Alone" ....implementing multi-circuit 120 VAC transfer switch (Reliable 10-circuit 30Amp).
Local permitting proving to be expensive and complex (impossible) for DIY solar mainly due to required certifications of designer&installer and component requirements of NEC specs.

So, I am implementing Plan-B instead:
I'm not going to install an ESS.....instead am building a "portable generator". :)
The small-scale of my original system design allows me to implement a portable battery generator solution which is portable and not part of my home's structure.
Notable design considerations:
*)Inverter and charge controllers are NOT UL-listed.
*)There is no permitting&inspecting process for rolling a portable home generator into the garage for standby power.
*)I'm still using NEC guidance in the design.....it is for the most part VERY solid process/procedure/safety practices for implementing solar.
*)Conductors fabrication, breakers/fusing, labeling scaled as outlined in general electrical code/best-practices and NEC 710.
*)Even though not an ESS from standpoint of permitting, I am implementing using using "NEC 690 Standalone System" guidance. Considerations include PV&ESS/&Inverter-out&Controller disconnects (integrated within generator unit)
*)using 2020 NEC 706 guidance for ESS implementation
*)No grid interconnect (NEC 705?)...is standalone with power transfer (Using NEC 710 guidance) to select circuit (total 125% amps of selected circuits under rated capacity of generator design).
*)Instead of installing hard-wired 10-circuit transfer switch myself (easy 2 hour job) will instead hire electrician to install transfer switch with 30A 120VAC generator inlet box/connection. Let him get it through inspection.
*)Unfortunately cant avoid permitting and inspections for panels. May just farm panel installation out to a solar pro and be done with it.
 
DIY grid-tie PV is quite doable in most jurisdictions.
If inverter implements UL-1741-SA "frequency watts", then it should play nice with a battery portable generator which supports AC coupling with frequency shift.

Since your generator will be portable, consider having the batteries on a dolly and long cord so you can roll them out of the garage to a place where a bonfire is acceptable.
 
One of my first posts here was a Rant about the 2020 Nec and PV systems and how screwed up it was. They are influenced by Manf & Venders for sure Way over their head and confusing as hell to boot.
 
At least we are all agreeing with the basics ... Do it right by code the first time... Now what code and how people read it is what screws up everyone. But as long as you are not buying cheap china crap then you should be good. I buy from the manufacture that has the certifications that are required. So putting together my system with all Ul listed equipment isn't that hard for me to make happen... Just a bit more confusing looking for them.
 
At least we are all agreeing with the basics .
Are we? Earlier you said everybody is reading this wrong. Now you seem to be saying that we all agree with the title of this thread. But then you seem to be saying that you already have or are going to assemble an ESS using components that have a UL stamp on them and get that DIY pack approved by a AHJ who has adopted NEC 2020. If so, I would love to see an example of reasonable priced battery cells with a UL approval?
NOTE As mentioned below, the correct term is UL Listed
 
Last edited:
UL Recognized is likely the most you'll find on a battery.


My SunXtender AGM are labeled "UL Recognized", but I don't find mention on their website.
 
Solar Power will eventually be the largest and most widely used source of power on earth in the not so distant future. Solar at this point is in its infancy of development…but that’s changing extremely fast..Scary fast….
That will equate to trillions of dollars in revenue and taxes and regulation and permitting fees for the big whigs, governments , stock companies , corporations and industry and whoever else wants to get in on the money grab.
Does anyone really think they will just let everyday people compete with them and have an alternative that costs less , not taxable , cuts them out of the money ,control and the position of power ??? .. sorry but that won’t happen .. they will just tighten their grip.. they always do. Look at how tech advances have been handled in our entire history as a species.
Big fish always eat little fish once they see the little fish have found something tasty.
 
Solar Power will eventually be the largest and most widely used source of power on earth in the not so distant future.
thank you for your response.

all of the hydrocarbon fuels seem to be synthesized from processes fueled by light from the sun.

every day the sun comes up, i feel super happy that the area around me warms up!

humans could potentially block out the sun with a weird diabolical umbrella, but that seems unlikely for now..

Sol powers every activity on earth, although some gather energy from the core by geothermal.

1653302453236.png
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top