New NEC code makes it impossible for DIY systems to be compliant

[fafrd]

I do think increasing solar micro-generation will be regulated and I suspect FIT will be done away with. Grid operators hate micro- generation

Then again the grid operator shouldn’t be forced to buy something it doesn’t want.

At least I can diy simply by not telling anyone at micro-generation levels.

Personally I think grid export is nonsense and should be banned at micro -generation levels

What is FIT?

 

[Ampster]

What is FIT?

I think it is Feed In Tariff. I think it is a form of Net Metering but someone will probably fill in the gaps in my explanation.

 

[TRW]

I think this info fits here, so I will tell you in West Central Wisconsin where I live, we have a mega solar conglomerate that has got contracts on 4200 acres to build a solar field. Here is what the hold-up is, they want to be 100 percent unregulated, but be able to put their power onto the grid without any cost for using the grid. This will be very rural, and this power will not be consumed here, it will be sent to Chicago, etc. There is a fight going on, and lots of political influence at work here.

 

[TRW]

I do think increasing solar micro-generation will be regulated and I suspect FIT will be done away with. Grid operators hate micro- generation

Then again the grid operator shouldn’t be forced to buy something it doesn’t want.

At least I can diy simply by not telling anyone at micro-generation levels.

Personally I think grid export is nonsense and should be banned at micro -generation levels

You have an interesting perspective, who do you think owns the grid?

 

[Goboatingnow]

I think it is Feed In Tariff. I think it is a form of Net Metering but someone will probably fill in the gaps in my explanation.

Yes feed in tarrif. You are credited at a given rate for any power you feed back into the grid.

 

[Goboatingnow]

You have an interesting perspective, who do you think owns the grid?

Where I am the grid is a privatised entity. ( it was funded and built by the state and owned by it) It’s charged with operating commercially and buying power from the various independent generators and seeking it at wholesale proving to retail electrical suppliers. It’s makes substantial profits.

The retail providers actually provide the credit for the feed in. But I know the grid operator has tirelessly lobbied the energy regulator to delay feed-in-tarrifs claiming that uncohtrolled micro generation could undermine the economics of the grid and also cause issue a with standby /backup generation. The energy regulator delayed FIT for several years until forced to concede recently by a combination of the Green Party being in Gov and the EU directive in supporting micro generation.

I expect to see increasing regulation of the solar PV. Diy installs are completely prohibited if grid tied in any way. ( it’s technically illegal to modify your main house electrical system anyway, especially the distribution /fuse box etc. )

Given the atipathy of the DNO ( grid operator ) I can see attempts to increasingly regulate the system

My own view however is feed back power and expecting the grid to pay you is ridiculous and really is simply a subsidy in disguise , better to give a bigger capital grant in the first place and allow no feedback.

To me a reliable effective national grid is a huge asset. Personally I believe it’s a strategic asset and should be re-nationalised and run at break even only. I don’t support anything that presents a risk to the grid.

PV has its place but not at the expense of the grid. Large solar farms are the way to go in my opinion. There’s a 40 acre one going in near me.

 

[TRW]

Where I am the grid is a privatised entity. ( it was funded and built by the state and owned by it) It’s charged with operating commercially and buying power from the various independent generators and seeking it at wholesale proving to retail electrical suppliers. It’s makes substantial profits.

The retail providers actually provide the credit for the feed in. But I know the grid operator has tirelessly lobbied the energy regulator to delay feed-in-tarrifs claiming that uncohtrolled micro generation could undermine the economics of the grid and also cause issue a with standby /backup generation. The energy regulator delayed FIT for several years until forced to concede recently by a combination of the Green Party being in Gov and the EU directive in supporting micro generation.

I expect to see increasing regulation of the solar PV. Diy installs are completely prohibited if grid tied in any way. ( it’s technically illegal to modify your main house electrical system anyway, especially the distribution /fuse box etc. )

Given the atipathy of the DNO ( grid operator ) I can see attempts to increasingly regulate the system

My own view however is feed back power and expecting the grid to pay you is ridiculous and really is simply a subsidy in disguise , better to give a bigger capital grant in the first place and allow no feedback.

To me a reliable effective national grid is a huge asset. Personally I believe it’s a strategic asset and should be re-nationalised and run at break even only. I don’t support anything that presents a risk to the grid.

PV has its place but not at the expense of the grid. Large solar farms are the way to go in my opinion. There’s a 40 acre one going in near me.

I have a busy evening ahead of me, but I also think the number one issue is to make the grid safe and reliable. I am a member of Dairyland Cooperative, much of our system covers a large part of Wisconsin and some of Minnesota, Illinois, and a bit of Iowa. Much of this system was financed by REA and still is. We also have lots of high voltage power lines, that are privately owned, and we kind of work together. I will say that we are a bit bullied by the transmission companies, they get what they want, and I generally agree with what they do, as we need a strong grid, and we are going to need one a whole lot bigger when we go all-electric cars, and that is going to be the shock of a lifetime when that happens.

 

[Cyanlite]

and we are going to need one a whole lot bigger when we go all-electric cars, and that is going to be the shock of a lifetime when that happens.

That won't happen overnight. It'll probably take 20-40 years of full transition. Between now and then a lot of miles of transmission lines need to be replaced anyways.

 

[Shimmy]

Residential production is a pain for the grid. And it's only going to get worse.
Because it's unpredictable and produced at the wrong time and location for the grids needs.

It's a little more complicated than that. Residential Service is a pain for utility companies. Their capital expenditures are amortized over up to 50 years, and rate structures don't reflect their cost structure due to political reasons.

My numbers are ROMs and old, but for a utility to serve a single family home they allocate $2,000 for direct capital expenditures which amortizes out to about $10-15/month. There is another $7-10/month budgeted for maintenance and repairs of the distribution side (sub-transmission:distribution transformer, MV distribution cable plant, poles, and LV transformer), $2/month for billing/collections, $1 for regulated programs, and then $2-3 for base operating profit for these fixed costs. That puts the cost of just having you on the grid at 120/240V in the $25-30 range, without actually doing anything in terms of energy transfer.

[A commercial business in contrast has an amortized capital cost closer to $20 (≤400A, 208V 3ph), but the other costs are the same.]

Your typical residential customer without a battery is going to push ~6x their average demand to the grid for 4 hours a day, and then pull it back at a slower rate for the remainder. That means they can handle about 17% of houses on a transformer having solar before they start having additional costs. For distribution circuits they can handle a slight net export before things get complicated, but you are looking at less than 20% solar penetration. Load variability within those parameters isn't a big deal, as it usually balances out geographically over a distribution circuit (or at least over a sub-transmission circuit).

The best solution is residential battery storage; that can give you up to 50% solar penetration before things go to shit. After that you need some substantial demand-side management or grossly oversized infrastructure (think a per-customer cost closer to $70/month).

 

[timselectric]

It's a little more complicated than that. Residential Service is a pain for utility companies. Their capital expenditures are amortized over up to 50 years, and rate structures don't reflect their cost structure due to political reasons.

My numbers are ROMs and old, but for a utility to serve a single family home they allocate $2,000 for direct capital expenditures which amortizes out to about $10-15/month. There is another $7-10/month budgeted for maintenance and repairs of the distribution side (sub-transmission:distribution transformer, MV distribution cable plant, poles, and LV transformer), $2/month for billing/collections, $1 for regulated programs, and then $2-3 for base operating profit for these fixed costs. That puts the cost of just having you on the grid at 120/240V in the $25-30 range, without actually doing anything in terms of energy transfer.

[A commercial business in contrast has an amortized capital cost closer to $20 (≤400A, 208V 3ph), but the other costs are the same.]

Your typical residential customer without a battery is going to push ~6x their average demand to the grid for 4 hours a day, and then pull it back at a slower rate for the remainder. That means they can handle about 17% of houses on a transformer having solar before they start having additional costs. For distribution circuits they can handle a slight net export before things get complicated, but you are looking at less than 20% solar penetration. Load variability within those parameters isn't a big deal, as it usually balances out geographically over a distribution circuit (or at least over a sub-transmission circuit).

The best solution is residential battery storage; that can give you up to 50% solar penetration before things go to shit. After that you need some substantial demand-side management or grossly oversized infrastructure (think a per-customer cost closer to $70/month).

Complicated takes too much typing. I'm a simple guy. lol

 

[Ampster]

we are going to need one a whole lot bigger when we go all-electric cars, and that is going to be the shock of a lifetime when that happens.

Electric cars generally charge at night when the grid typically has lots of capacity. Do you have any numbers to support your statement?
I for one would rather see California invest in more grid functionality than waste money on needless capacity based on that kind of opinion.

 

[TRW]

Electric cars generally charge at night when the grid typically has lots of capacity. Do you have any numbers to support your statement?
I for one would rather see California invest in more grid functionality than waste money on needless capacity based on that kind of opinion.

If you look up how much electric demand we will need to replace the fossil fuel equivalent, you will be shocked, and so will everyone else. I would quote you some figures but they are so phenomenal that I will ask you to do some research on it.

America uses close to 400 million gallons of gasoline each day, each gallon is equivalent to 33 kilowatts, run those numbers!

Now to get very political, I will tell you that the only way we are going to satisfy the supply of electricity is to build about 200 of those small nuclear plants scattered about the main metropolitan areas. I know I may be run off the forum for that, but I am right.

 

[SparkyJJO]

Electric cars generally charge at night when the grid typically has lots of capacity. Do you have any numbers to support your statement?
I for one would rather see California invest in more grid functionality than waste money on needless capacity based on that kind of opinion.

Lots of capacity NOW. What about later if everyone and their brother is charging? Might not be lots of capacity then. I don't know, I don't have all the numbers, but it is something to consider.

 

[Danke]

America uses close to 400 million gallons of gasoline each day, each gallon is equivalent to 33 kilowatts, run those numbers!

I came up with a googolplex squared. Sound about right?

 

[Ampster]

. I would quote you some figures but they are so phenomenal that I will ask you to do some research on it.

I have done the research and what I have discovered is that from 10PM until 4 PM there is a great deal of unused capacity available that can be used to charge EVs with no need to add 200 Nuclear plants..
You are making the assertion and I am supply asking you to prove it. "Phenomenal" is an adjective not a quantitative number that proves anything. Just look at the numbers from CAISO or any other Independent a system Operator around the Country.

 

[Ampster]

I don't know, I don't have all the numbers, but it is something to consider.

Everybody and their brother? My brother already has two EVs and charges like I do overnight. I have been driving EVs since 2012 and am not worried. Do you drive an EV? If you are worried, don't buy and EV but please don't put out FUD.

 

[Ampster]

I came up with a googolplex squared. Sound about right?

Yes. Reason number 40 Why you should not buy an EV so us EV drivers will be able to charge our EVs. Besides, someone has to support the oil companies.

 

[Ampster]

each gallon is equivalent to 33 kilowatts, run those numbers!

I did run the numbers. There is a big difference in the efficiency of an EV because an EV only needs 10 kWhrs to go 30 miles I am being generous to assume most US cars would get 30 miles to the gallon. Still worried? I don't know many EV drivers who are worried.

 

[niktak11]

If you look up how much electric demand we will need to replace the fossil fuel equivalent, you will be shocked, and so will everyone else. I would quote you some figures but they are so phenomenal that I will ask you to do some research on it.

America uses close to 400 million gallons of gasoline each day, each gallon is equivalent to 33 kilowatts, run those numbers!

Now to get very political, I will tell you that the only way we are going to satisfy the supply of electricity is to build about 200 of those small nuclear plants scattered about the main metropolitan areas. I know I may be run off the forum for that, but I am right.

It only takes my car 7-8kWh to drive as far as a similar ICE vehicle can go on a gallon of gasoline. My lifetime average is a bit above 4 miles per kWh but I can exceed 5 miles/kWh in good conditions.

 

[Goboatingnow]

I’ve read the strategic report from our grid operator who currently owns the largest EV charging system. They envisage 30 year grid EV program. Their huge problem is housing estates where cabling is all underground and limited capacity. Upgrading this means large scale trenching and disruption. The next big upgrade is the medium voltage grid. But this is almost all over ground.

Additional Power generation is seen as a simple incentive investment system to encourage more generators.

The other thing is many urban planners especially European ones see far less private cars in their plans into the future. For example if you build within 3km of public transport you have no obligation to provide any dedicated apartment car parking for example. .

Couple this with disincentives like congestion charging , sky high parking charges etc. the net result is a massive disincentives to own a car.

Both my daughters are in very well paid jobs in the centre of two European capitals. Neither owns a car ! Nor has any plans too. Their boyfriends don’t own cars either nor do many of their peer group. They use hop in hop out car rental from time to time. ( my youngest at 28 doesn’t even have a driving license , whereas I got mine at 17 ) this generation doesn’t see cars the way we did.