New NEC code makes it impossible for DIY systems to be compliant

[Hedges]

For example if you build within 3km of public transport you have no obligation to provide any dedicated apartment car parking for example.

Can you imagine what it would do to our most important industry if the average American walked 6km (round trip) each day?!

 

[Goboatingnow]

Can you imagine what it would do to our most important industry if the average American walked 6km (round trip) each day?!

The coffee shops on route would do well though.

 

[hankcurt]

The amount of summer peak demand and winter peak demand issues we see from grid operators in certain parts of the U.S. does not inspire confidence. I think for the EV transition to work well with minimum infrastructure upgrades, electric utilities will have to embrace rate structures that encourage home solar combined with home storage or vehicle to grid technologies. In that scenario, the increasing number of EVs are not just a load on the system, but also a resource for balancing grid load.

I appreciated the Engineering Explained video on the subject of EVs and the grid.

 

[Danke]

The amount of summer peak demand and winter peak demand issues we see from grid operators in certain parts of the U.S. does not inspire confidence. I think for the EV transition to work well with minimum infrastructure upgrades, electric utilities will have to embrace rate structures that encourage home solar combined with home storage or vehicle to grid technologies. In that scenario, the increasing number of EVs are not just a load on the system, but also a resource for balancing grid load.

I appreciated the Engineering Explained video on the subject of EVs and the grid.

Ya, saw that before. He is good with the numbers. Just one critique. He uses household avg. kWh consumption but then only one EV driver. Many times households have more than one driver, so actual electrical consumption increase per household may be a lot higher.

 

[eXodus]

Fires fires fires

lol nope, the electrical requirements are still the same - just a inspection was added - but additionally now you need all sorts of roof windload calculations, engineered drawings and the utility want's to have your power bill and you can't build like more then 110% of your usage.

Then again the grid operator shouldn’t be forced to buy something it doesn’t want.

At least I can diy simply by not telling anyone at micro-generation levels.

Personally I think grid export is nonsense and should be banned at micro -generation levels

If there would a free power market where anyone could sell and buy - that wouldn't be an issue.

The Issue is that the Grid Operator and the Power Producers are the same in US - in Europe those are separate entities. So you either do the lines or you run power plants - not both.
Would be same if construction firms would own the run tolls on the roads . Infrastructure for markets should be run by Governments.

The Grid Operator shouldn't be buying anything - the should charge a fee for transmission. Who ever end-user want's the energy should buy it.
As a Power producer I should be able to sell to the highest bidder - every household, industry, etc' should be able to see the current pricing and buy when they choose. If nobody wants my PV power - then I can't sell it.

There is a case for batteries, could save my PV power during the day and discharge when prices are high during the evening.

I’ve read the strategic report from our grid operator who currently owns the largest EV charging system. They envisage 30 year grid EV program. Their huge problem is housing estates where cabling is all underground and limited capacity. Upgrading this means large scale trenching and disruption. The next big upgrade is the medium voltage grid. But this is almost all over ground.

If you do demand side management and charge those cars during low peak operations - no additional capacity needed.
In the new code for I think 2025 - all EVSE shall be Grid-interactive - to take advantage of low pricing.

The average driver goes about 35 miles a day - it 4 miles / kwh that's a measly 9kwh/h / day for a person driving a car. That's like leaving your stove on for 3 hours to make turkey. Nothing the grid can't handle

The only issue arrive when everyone comes back home at 6PM and charges the car and turns the stove on.

This will be very rural, and this power will not be consumed here, it will be sent to Chicago, etc. There is a fight going on, and lots of political influence at work here.

Free powermarket would solve this - non-electected Government would run the grid (like roads) and everyone can sell and purchase power.

Large solar farms are the way to go in my opinion.

Large scale solar yes - farms no.

Cover all Parkinglots in the Country with Solar Carports- use exiting infrastructure and don't dig up valuable farmland and natural resources.
There are 800.000.000+ public Parkingspots - close to the end user of power. Further there are massive amount of driveways with additional 400-600 million parking spots. One Parkingspot is 5-6KW it's a standardized format - very good for mass production. Instead of the complexity of roof-top installations

For very economic reasons - the amount of parking infrastructure correlates with high energy usage. If you get massive solar carports on every parking lot - you reduce all the losses from Solar Farms which are out in the middle of nowhere and need large trenching or overhead lines.

 

[Goboatingnow]

….

If there would a free power market where anyone could sell and buy - that wouldn't be an issue.

Don’t agree , the stability of the grid is N overriding requirement. Too much adhoc microgenetstion causes destabilisation. Other then large scale generators I don’t see why anyone should get paid to be amateur part time hobby electricity generators

The Issue is that the Grid Operator and the Power Producers are the same in US - in Europe those are separate entities. So you either do the lines or you run power plants - not both.

By law in the EU the government can’t own or run either power gen or grid , and can’t subsidise them either. Not a great place to be

Would be same if construction firms would own the run tolls on the roads . Infrastructure for markets should be run by Governments.

Most of the motorways and bridges around me are precisely owned by the companies that built them and they have long term lease arrangements as they put up all the money.

If you do demand side management and charge those cars during low peak operations - no additional capacity needed.

You can’t , if you predict forward EV charging does have both the ability to overload both power generation and the mid and low voltage grid. Fixing the power generation is comparatively easy. Fixing the low and mid voltage grid is very hard and expensive.


In the new code for I think 2025 - all EVSE shall be Grid-interactive - to take advantage of low pricing.

Yes but who wants to charge their car at 2pm. People sleep at night et.

The average driver goes about 35 miles a day - it 4 miles / kwh that's a measly 9kwh/h / day for a person driving a car. That's like leaving your stove on for 3 hours to make turkey. Nothing the grid can't handle

Scaled up to every household it’s a big problem.

The only issue arrive when everyone comes back home at 6PM and charges the car and turns the stove on.

Yup people work fixed hours , sleep at night etc

Free powermarket would solve this - non-electected Government would run the grid (like roads) and everyone can sell and purchase power.

We have it. Completely independent generators , grid operators and retail electricity suppliers.

No sign it’s any better then any other form of ownership

Large scale solar yes - farms no.

Cover all Parkinglots in the Country with Solar Carports- use exiting infrastructure and don't dig up valuable farmland and natural resources.
There are 800.000.000+ public Parkingspots - close to the end user of power. Further there are massive amount of driveways with additional 400-600 million parking spots. One Parkingspot is 5-6KW it's a standardized format - very good for mass production. Instead of the complexity of roof-top installations

Around me the panels are being raised to allow sheep and cows to graze. Sounds like win win. Not to mention much land is mountains or bogs and poor quality

For very economic reasons - the amount of parking infrastructure correlates with high energy usage. If you get massive solar carports on every parking lot - you reduce all the losses from Solar Farms which are out in the middle of nowhere and need large trenching or overhead lines.

Planners around here won’t allow large car parking areas.

 

[McKravitts]

Are you penalized for having PV, or forced onto a different rate schedule?
If so, zero export. If not, export for near-zero credit is simpler and costs less.
Just try to utilize as much of your production as possible for savings off retail.
What are your rates? Some batteries may approach $0.05/kWh, if they last claimed number of cycles. But to ensure a return I wouldn't count on the lasting over 25%, so $0.20/kWh.

If you are just using the standard meter, it will actually run forward when you are exporting power. You get charged the same per KWH that you export as you do when you import.

If you get approved for net metering, you’ll have to have your system approved by both the local electrical inspector and their own inspector. Your cost of equipment will be substantially higher.
I have a friend who went through the whole process and he showed me his “museum” of moth balled equipment he had to replace with much more expensive equipment.

They definitely do not like DIY systems. After approved, they’ll install a net metering meter.

These meters have two counters. One for power imported one for power exported.

Your bill then shows a charge for imported and a credit for exported.

The credit can only be applied to electric bills.

There rules have been changed frequently over the years so what they credit depends on when you got approved and for how long they have to grandfather their contracts.

Right now it’s about 20% of what they charge and they are trying to lower it even more.



It’s best to just never let them know. I use all I generate or store any excess in batteries, but it’s been a little tricky because I want to keep enough energy in my batteries for power outages. If my batteries reach full charge, I waste photons. I’m working on automating my system as much as possible.

 

[Goboatingnow]

If you are just using the standard meter, it will actually run forward when you are exporting power. You get charged the same per KWH that you export as you do when you import.

If you get approved for net metering, you’ll have to have your system approved by both the local electrical inspector and their own inspector. Your cost of equipment will be substantially higher.
I have a friend who went through the whole process and he showed me his “museum” of moth balled equipment he had to replace with much more expensive equipment.

They definitely do not like DIY systems. After approved, they’ll install a net metering meter.

These meters have two counters. One for power imported one for power exported.

Your bill then shows a charge for imported and a credit for exported.

The credit can only be applied to electric bills.

There rules have been changed frequently over the years so what they credit depends on when you got approved and for how long they have to grandfather their contracts.

Right now it’s about 20% of what they charge and they are trying to lower it even more.



It’s best to just never let them know. I use all I generate or store any excess in batteries, but it’s been a little tricky because I want to keep enough energy in my batteries for power outages. If my batteries reach full charge, I waste photons. I’m working on automating my system as much as possible.

If you are just using the standard meter, it will actually run forward when you are exporting power. You get charged the same per KWH that you export as you do when you import.

No all metres are now electronic except very few. I have a night day meter it will not accept power feedback ( well it won’t measure it ) it will obviously do net metering in that anything I don’t use from this grid isn’t metered. It won’t count grid feedback

If you get approved for net metering, you’ll have to have your system approved by both the local electrical inspector and their own inspector. Your cost of equipment will be substantially higher.
I have a friend who went through the whole process and he showed me his “museum” of moth balled equipment he had to replace with much more expensive equipment.

Agreed it all has to be certified. Making the net metering ( it’s not true net metering as the fit tariff is 50% of the consumption tariff ) more expensive then if I not bother telling them.

They definitely do not like DIY systems. After approved, they’ll install a net metering meter.

Yup , agree , don’t say anything is my default position

These meters have two counters. One for power imported one for power exported.

Yup

Your bill then shows a charge for imported and a credit for exported.

The credit can only be applied to electric bills.

There rules have been changed frequently over the years so what they credit depends on when you got approved and for how long they have to grandfather their contracts.

Yup

Right now it’s about 20% of what they charge and they are trying to lower it even more.

It varies. Currently it’s up to 50 % depending on which retail supplier I choose and want is their current offerings ( a bewildering array of choices)

It’s best to just never let them know. I use all I generate or store any excess in batteries, but it’s been a little tricky because I want to keep enough energy in my batteries for power outages. If my batteries reach full charge, I waste photons. I’m working on automating my system as much as possible.

Yes that would be my perspective , say nothing and if caught beg for forgiveness. The first rule of dealing with utilities and governments “ no good deed goes unpunished “

 

[eXodus]

Yes but who wants to charge their car at 2pm. People sleep at night et.

you don't care when you car is charging, you plug it in when you get home and it's full next day.

Demand side management does the thinking for you. There is no fixed time when power pricing is low. If price goes down at 10PM - your car starts charging - if it stays high - it starts charging at 2am - it doesn't matter - you only charge for 2 hours a day anyhow.

We have it. Completely independent generators , grid operators and retail electricity suppliers.

can you as consumer choose whom to buy your power from at any hour of the day? Do you got at least 10 different suppliers to choose from? If not - it's not a market just a monopoly / oligopoly.

You can’t , if you predict forward EV charging does have both the ability to overload both power generation and the mid and low voltage grid. Fixing the power generation is comparatively easy.

you don't need to do any of that. If appliances - like cars, refrigerators, waterheaters are able to sense power pricing - they just turn on when the load on the grid is low and prices as well. I can heat up my water once or twice a day - I don't care at which time - as long as it's always hot.

Around me the panels are being raised to allow sheep and cows to graze. Sounds like win win. Not to mention much land is mountains or bogs and poor quality

That is amazing- Agrivoltaics is one great way of combating single use land zoning. Still doesn't solve the distribution problem you are apparently very concerned about. Solar Carports solve that - no long and mid range distribution anymore. Power is produced close to those who need them.

 

[eXodus]

Too much adhoc microgenetstion causes destabilisation. Other then large scale generators I don’t see why anyone should get paid to be amateur part time hobby electricity generators

fully agree, no question about that point. Microproduces should buy and sell as everyone else. If there is more power - prices should go lower, and the smaller produces will go offline and store into batteries and wait until prices go back up - prices go back up - small producers start contributing again.

Currently most small PV owner get a fixed (potential subsidized) price per kWh - that's not a good system - I agree with you.

 

[Goboatingnow]

fully agree, no question about that point. Microproduces should buy and sell as everyone else. If there is more power - prices should go lower, and the smaller produces will go offline and store into batteries and wait until prices go back up - prices go back up - small producers start contributing again.

Currently most small PV owner get a fixed (potential subsidized) price per kWh - that's not a good system - I agree with you.

Im of the view micro generators should never get paid.

 

[Goboatingnow]

you don't care when you car is charging, you plug it in when you get home and it's full next day.

Demand side management does the thinking for you. There is no fixed time when power pricing is low. If price goes down at 10PM - your car starts charging - if it stays high - it starts charging at 2am - it doesn't matter - you only charge for 2 hours a day anyhow.


can you as consumer choose whom to buy your power from at any hour of the day? Do you got at least 10 different suppliers to choose from? If not - it's not a market just a monopoly / oligopoly.


you don't need to do any of that. If appliances - like cars, refrigerators, waterheaters are able to sense power pricing - they just turn on when the load on the grid is low and prices as well. I can heat up my water once or twice a day - I don't care at which time - as long as it's always hot.

That is amazing- Agrivoltaics is one great way of combating single use land zoning. Still doesn't solve the distribution problem you are apparently very concerned about. Solar Carports solve that - no long and mid range distribution anymore. Power is produced close to those who need them.

The country is 200 miles wide , distribution isn’t an issue !!!!

 

[TRW]

I have done the research and what I have discovered is that from 10PM until 4 PM there is a great deal of unused capacity available that can be used to charge EVs with no need to add 200 Nuclear plants..
You are making the assertion and I am supply asking you to prove it. "Phenomenal" is an adjective not a quantitative number that proves anything. Just look at the numbers from CAISO or any other Independent a system Operator around the Country.

You are exactly correct on night capacity being sufficient today, but we are scheduled to shut down our fossil fuel generation plants, which has put a huge strain on natural gas prices and now causing a serious problem with the high gas cost. The nuclear plants will make up for that.

You can see that if we charge at night, a good idea, we continue to increase demand and that demand is met by fossil fuel in the foreseeable future.

 

[Goboatingnow]

you don't care when you car is charging, you plug it in when you get home and it's full next day.

Most people “ work 9 to 5 , have dinner etc. the house loads may preclude charging except at night. ( for example I have 7kw ev charging but it’s only practical at night )

Hence low price on demand tariffs are useless if your car isn’t there in the first place

Demand side management does the thinking for you. There is no fixed time when power pricing is low. If price goes down at 10PM - your car starts charging - if it stays high - it starts charging at 2am - it doesn't matter - you only charge for 2 hours a day anyhow.

My car has no way to know if tariffs change Is there is no common protocol to allow this to happen. This is a huge issue. My washing machine or dishwasher doesn’t know either. All these smart meter tariffs are a con job until a protocol exists to inform the appliances automatically

By the way at 7kw we needed 5 hours every night , as the commute to work was 120 miles a day

Equally many tasks are time fixed. No point washing dishes at 8am or clothes washing at 11am. There’s no one home

can you as consumer choose whom to buy your power from at any hour of the day? Do you got at least 10 different suppliers to choose from? If not - it's not a market just a monopoly / oligopoly.

Sure I can change retail supplier but there’s a huge diverse range of plans. It’s not practical for me to do that daily or hourly. I don’t see any market place that allows hour by hour retail supplier movement. The grid doesn’t work like that because frankly it would allows consumers to “ game “ the grid. No supply system will do that.

So it’s a free but controlled market largely to the benefit of the suppliers not the consumers. No more then my local supermarket.

you don't need to do any of that. If appliances - like cars, refrigerators, waterheaters are able to sense power pricing - they just turn on when the load on the grid is low and prices as well. I can heat up my water once or twice a day - I don't care at which time - as long as it's always hot.

I agree and until we get mandatory ISO backed protocols to communicate pricing data to my washing machine etc. we’ll be screwed by hourly tariffs which is why I rejected my meter upgrade to smart meter recently s

That is amazing- Agrivoltaics is one great way of combating single use land zoning. Still doesn't solve the distribution problem you are apparently very concerned about. Solar Carports solve that - no long and mid range distribution anymore. Power is produced close to those who need them.

Close is not a factor in a country 400 by 200 !! , I mean we have interconnectors with France. Power doesn’t need to be locally generated at all I don’t care where it cones from

 

[eXodus]

Im of the view micro generators should never get paid.

Why not? Shouldn't you get something for your work and investment? What is your profession? Why should you get paid?

The country is 200 miles wide , distribution isn’t an issue

the scale of country is completely irrelevant if you got local production, generation and consumption. A Grid of Microgrids.

The current Grid in most country is highly centralized, which brings all the issues you are describing and you are obviously worried about. When you get all the power you need from your sheep grazing neighbor which happens to have a solar farm above it - there is no increased need for country wide distribution.

But when you don't pay small producers and only have single large ones -then exactly the scenario you are fearing will happen.

 

[eXodus]

the lowest prices are between 1 and 6am - most EVs are at home during that time and plugged in - no need to charge at prime time during 18-23PM.

That can be even achieved with low end build in timers - every EV has one in the dash.
But very few people know about this. They just pay one single price per kWh. So the market is distorted.

 

[Goboatingnow]

Why not? Shouldn't you get something for your work and investment? What is your profession? Why should you get paid?

Because I’m not a professional electricity generator. Hey I’ve 20 litres of gasoline in my shed , funny my filing station won’t pay me to give it back to them

Why should I expect the grid to buy something it doesn’t want ( the grid operator does not want microgenetstion but is being forced politically ) , they say the tariff is way too high

You don't believe in free markets or? You probably never experienced a real working one. There are very few free markets,

If there are very few , then the concept is purely theoretical. I’m not aware of any really “ free” markets. I couldn’t care about free markets anyway as these equally screw the consumer.

the scale of country is completely irrelevant if you got local production, generation and consumption. A Grid of Microgrids.

Nope a nation wide stable ultra reliable grid is best. People should expect stable reliable power wherever they are. It should not depend on anything local. I have not suffered a grid outage in 10 years.

The current Grid in most country is highly centralized, which brings all the issues you are describing and you are obviously worried about. When you get all the power you need from your sheep grazing neighbor which happens to have a solar farm above it - there is no increased need for country wide distribution.

Nope. Because those that are not near that should have equal access to reliable fairly priced grid electricity. Apartment blocks etc.
a stable unified national grid is a major national resource it can also interconnect with foreign power sources To meet peak demand and sell excess. We are linked to three countries grids

Local fractures grids are a mess , see Texas.

But when you don't pay small producers and only have single large ones -then exactly the scenario you are fearing will happen.

No the grid operator sees no advantage in being forced politically to offer non competitive ( to wholesale generation) feed in tariffs to domestic households. Where micro generation to proliferate it brings issue like grid finances into question ( requiring more subsidies ) and the standby backup power generation issues

Why not? Shouldn't you get something for your work and investment? What is your profession? Why should you get paid?


You don't believe in free markets or? You probably never experienced a real working one. There are very few free markets,

the scale of country is completely irrelevant if you got local production, generation and consumption. A Grid of Microgrids.

The current Grid in most country is highly centralized, which brings all the issues you are describing and you are obviously worried about. When you get all the power you need from your sheep grazing neighbor which happens to have a solar farm above it - there is no increased need for country wide distribution.

But when you don't pay small producers and only have single large ones -then exactly the scenario you are fearing will happen.

In summary by all means install PV , by all means grid tie. I see no reason to force a grid to accept your electricity.

 

[Goboatingnow]

View attachment 112368

the lowest prices are between 1 and 6am - most EVs are at home during that time and plugged in - no need to charge at prime time during 18-23PM.

That can be even achieved with low end build in timers - every EV has one in the dash.
But very few people know about this. They just pay one single price per kWh. So the market is distorted.

Everyone I know with an Ev has night rate metering. I mean our rate from midnight to 8am is 1/3 our day rate. You’d be crazy to charge an ev at night on a standard tariff.

This is not the issue. The issue is the electricity supply wants to move to hour to hour tariffing using smart meters. How then dues your car know when to start charging. Until we have an industry wide protocol I’m refusing to go smart meter tariffs.

( the carrot being waved is very low hour tariffs , say when there’s a lot of renewables on the grid. But beware when suppliers tell you “
It will be so cheap “ , it’s a con job )

 

[Bl2yan]

Why should I expect the grid to buy something it doesn’t want ( the grid operator does not want microgenetstion but is being forced politically ) , they say the tariff is way too high

I think they do want it, you're just trying to sell it to them at the least desirable time. So I believe both are true.

Nope a nation wide stable ultra reliable grid is best. People should expect stable reliable power wherever they are. It should not depend on anything local. I have not suffered a grid outage in 10 years.

Where do you live?

Local fractures grids are a mess , see Texas.

I believe there are too many variables and policy unknows here to sum it the fact it is due to being an isolated grid in Texas.

No the grid operator sees no advantage in being forced politically to offer non competitive ( to wholesale generation) feed in tariffs to domestic households. Where micro generation to proliferate it brings issue like grid finances into question ( requiring more subsidies ) and the standby backup power generation issues

In summary by all means install PV , by all means grid tie. I see no reason to force a grid to accept your electricity.

Agree, the power generation is a fairly inexpensive step in the grand scheme of getting kWhs to your house. It makes sense to me generate power locally where it is consumed but doesn't make sense to send it back to the grid for much more than their own generation cost.

What I would really like to see in the next step of grid enhancements is a well developed Time of Use. Let the end user participate in the stability and iron out the volatility. Pay people for power when you need it, like demand response and Teslas virtual power plant program. Extend this.

 

[cs1234]

The coffee shops on route would do well though.

Better build some bathrooms on the route as well. Coffee is quite stimulating. I don't know if our waste water infrastructure can handle it.