diy solar

diy solar

New NEC code makes it impossible for DIY systems to be compliant

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What do you mean by deregulated?
On about 2000 the Investor Owned Utilities were required to sell off their generating assets. Now those facilities are owned by companies like NRG and others who sell into the market place. Both PG&E and SCE kept their hydro and nuclear. Rates were unbundled so Community Choice Aggregation providers could compete for generation business. The IOUs are regulated and they are not allowed to make a profit from selling generation but they are allowed to attach overhead to the cost of generation that they purchase. The IOUs have become distribution entities and that is what is threatened by solar and home batteries. Deregulation has not affected municipal utilities like LA Department of Water and Power and other municipal utilities.
 
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they're only being utilized for shorter periods of time, mostly during the off-peak of 4pm through 10pm.
we could shave the peak of with Demand Side management and intelligence Smart Pricing.

That is 400,000,000 kwh (400 gigawatt hours) of daily power generation and storage available, which becomes very useful if it can be coordinated
Your house, Waterheater, Fridge, Freezer - are all giant thermal batteries - already existing in the Terawatts of storage is already available today- You can load them up during off-peak - and not run them during the peak hours.

Nobody will notice if their fridge doesn't run for 3-4 hours. same for the Waterheater. You'r A/C could cool down 1-2 degree more ahead of peak pricing and then just step down (or not run all for a few hours)
 
now I wonder if we will all end up with batteries someday. Time to invest in something!
I have already invested in a hybrid inverter and batteries. I operate in self consumption mode but because of seasonal differences in consumption and generation I need to use the grid as a seasonal battery as well. I do pay for that priveledge through Non Bypassable Charges. That plus a Minimum Delivery Charge of about $10 a month is all I pay. That is a very good economic benefit to me and improved my return on investment in batteries.
 
we could shave the peak of with Demand Side management and intelligence Smart Pricing.
I put more hope in Demand Side management than pricing. I had hoped that TOU rates would change demand but there appears to be a naivety among many users about their rates and consumption patters. Even some people cringe at giving another entity control over their temperature in their home. However programs like Ohm Connect are making progress. They even call themselves Virtual Power Plants. The real VPPs like aggregated Tesla Powerwalls are where the big difference can be made.
 
Nope a nation wide stable ultra reliable grid is best. People should expect stable reliable power wherever they are. It should not depend on anything local. I have not suffered a grid outage in 10 years.
monthly power outages are pretty common around here with a central vertical integrated power company. The own everything from the plant to the meter.
Central single powerplants (I call them single point of failure) single large scale distribution lines (which fall over when a storm is in the vicinity)

I had hoped that TOU rates would change demand but there appears to be a naivety among many users about their rates and consumption patters
People have no good way of acting on those rates. That needs to be automated.
 
monthly power outages are pretty common around here with a central vertical integrated power company. The own everything from the plant to the meter.
Central single powerplants (I call them single point of failure) single large scale distribution lines (which fall over when a storm is in the vicinity)
Yes that’s what happens when you have vertical energy supply chain especially when it’s geographically limited.

The better way is multiple competing generators including standby , backbone , renewables and multi country interconnectors.

As I said I can’t remember my last grid outage. Even after storms , redundant paths etc bring back consumers quickly. Of course some up a mountain may wait a day or two.
People have no good way of acting on those rates. That needs to be automated.
Correct , TOU is a supplier scam to use the lack of demand elasticity many consumers have and screw them with higher rates
 
TOU is a supplier scam to use the lack of demand elasticity many consumers have and screw them with higher rates
I agree most people don't have the knowledge or capabilty to respond. My concern, at least in California, is the argument has turned to one of economic justice and the people with the means to pay for solar are possibly being punished to benefit those without the foresight or means. At least that is the latest argument at the CPUC. That rankles my sense of free market economics.
 
I agree most people don't have the knowledge or capabilty to respond. My concern, at least in California, is the argument has turned to one of economic justice and the people with the means to pay for solar are possibly being punished to benefit those without the foresight or means. At least that is the latest argument at the CPUC. That rankles my sense of free market economics.
Well i agree , people with money and access to tech can leverage ToU better then those that cannot. Hence the well off get more well off and the poor loose out.
 
Are you referring to the poor with the latest iPhone/Android, a large flat screen TV, beer in the fridge, and a blinged out car??

PV doesn't help the poor. Its cost per kWh is no savings over the lower rates they pay.
PV was a big win for the well off when higher usage tiers were priced 3x baseline. If they put in PV which reduces or eliminates power draw from the grid for A/C or pool pump, that is no skin off the backs of the poor.

My youngest car is far older than the group at left side of this chart, and I'm way beyond the right side.
"Poor" is a lifestyle choice.

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Traditional power plants are having to scale back and lower their output except during small windows because solar is cheaper and plentiful (and cleaner) during daylight hours.
You are missing the fact that most generation today is natural gas turbines with HRSGs. They are relatively easy to start and stop, and can follow load pretty well.

The free market actually deals with this pretty well; a natural gas fired turbine today is designed to take advantage of "ancillary services" to generate revenue when it cannot compete on energy prices directly. The value of energy produced during the day trends down to the lowest cost energy source (often solar). This creates a natural incentive to add things like batteries to provide both peak-value energy and ancillary services.
 
You are missing the fact that most generation today is natural gas turbines with HRSGs. They are relatively easy to start and stop, and can follow load pretty well.
The US market is highly varied. I tend to base my comments on what is happening in California but need to remember the broader audience including International members.
 
In my area of Wisconsin, we have some state rules that stifle local electrical production, so we buy some of our power from out of state, and idle a few coal plants. I have been a TOU consumer for years, and I fully understand peak load, so I think that this system works well to hold down the load at critical times when generation is not available at a low price. Please tell me why this is not ideal.
 
You are missing the fact that most generation today is natural gas turbines with HRSGs. They are relatively easy to start and stop, and can follow load pretty well.

The free market actually deals with this pretty well; a natural gas fired turbine today is designed to take advantage of "ancillary services" to generate revenue when it cannot compete on energy prices directly. The value of energy produced during the day trends down to the lowest cost energy source (often solar). This creates a natural incentive to add things like batteries to provide both peak-value energy and ancillary services.
But who's going to build and operate these things when there is so much solar and battery to last several cloudy days?
 
My youngest car is far older than the group at left side of this chart, and I'm way beyond the right side.
"Poor" is a lifestyle choice.

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Both of my personal cars (not my business fleet) are both 8-12 years old also. I'm beyond the right side of the chart, but I consider myself lucky more than an amazingly hard worker, and my luck could certainly run out.

What helps keep me from spending more on personal cars is:
  • I've grown to hate cars. (Having to deal with a fleet of them being driven by employees that don't give a crap will do that to you)
  • I don't drive much.
  • I work from home mostly.
  • They are paid for and have no problems.
 
That is from 2017. I'll bet the numbers are way different now. We have the same cars we did 5 years ago, and they weren't new then. One is now 15 years old, over 230k miles, and quite rusty (it needed some patching done on the frame this summer trying to get more life out of it). But it is the one that can fit 3 car seats. Used car prices are so insane right now. I don't have the kind of money they want and I'm concerned with the way inflation and interest rates are going that I wouldn't even be able to afford the payments.
 
But who's going to build and operate these things when there is so much solar and battery to last several cloudy days?
The equation is seasonal rather than diurnal. The fewer hours per year it needs to operate the more each hour costs obviously. The recent California heatwave gives you a good idea about how it works; the last MWh added to the grid was at a cost of over $1,300. You don't have to operate many hours a year when you are getting a rate over $300/MWh. Add in incentives for spinning reserve and other ancillary services and some of these plants are economically viable running fewer than 200 hours per year! (Currently most will operate 20-30 hours per week in the winter and 10-20 in the summer.)
 
I think that PV will actually be able to lower the baseline cost of energy if the business models around deploying it are structured right
the raw tech for a 16kw system with 30kwh of batteries is about $24k with ground mount or roof mount and RSD, at the average 1500kwh/kw/year facing south it will make 24000kwh of power per year in self-consume mode using the battery bank Net metering or not, and that equals 480,000kwh per 20 years average life (less for inverters more for panels) $0.05/kwh is the average cost per kwh, if you add 6% finance for mortgage then you raise the cost by 72% to 8.6 cents financed: by comparison, energy averages 15 cents today and rising nationwide.

My hope is that improvements only sweeten this deal and allow for trade companies to get into this space on an honest-markup basis
Are you referring to the poor with the latest iPhone/Android, a large flat screen TV, beer in the fridge, and a blinged out car??

PV doesn't help the poor. Its cost per kWh is no savings over the lower rates they pay.
PV was a big win for the well off when higher usage tiers were priced 3x baseline. If they put in PV which reduces or eliminates power draw from the grid for A/C or pool pump, that is no skin off the backs of the poor.

My youngest car is far older than the group at left side of this chart, and I'm way beyond the right side.
"Poor" is a lifestyle choice.

View attachment 112430

 
Yes, amortized cost of hardware for PV, even for off grid system, looks cheaper than current utility rates. (California $0.20 to $0.50)
I think $0.05/kWh is lowest price we are seeing for battery alone, and that only if it does last claimed number of cycles. But that still brings total to $0.075 or $0.10/kWh. Assuming you are a fair weather guy, and you expect to never see a week of heavy overcast.

I can just imagine how bad the repair and maintenance will get to be, with people all over having various different systems.

If your system goes down, you are without power. Now what if you and all the neighbors were interconnected for redundancy. If everyone has grid-tie PV and battery, if one goes down the neighborhood carries the load. If that is an island grid, probably need a data link and protocol to cooperatively form the grid. If there is a central grid, just frequency-watts or volts-watts might be sufficient.
 
Yes, amortized cost of hardware for PV, even for off grid system, looks cheaper than current utility rates. (California $0.20 to $0.50)
I think $0.05/kWh is lowest price we are seeing for battery alone, and that only if it does last claimed number of cycles. But that still brings total to $0.075 or $0.10/kWh. Assuming you are a fair weather guy, and you expect to never see a week of heavy overcast.

I can just imagine how bad the repair and maintenance will get to be, with people all over having various different systems.

If your system goes down, you are without power. Now what if you and all the neighbors were interconnected for redundancy. If everyone has grid-tie PV and battery, if one goes down the neighborhood carries the load. If that is an island grid, probably need a data link and protocol to cooperatively form the grid. If there is a central grid, just frequency-watts or volts-watts might be sufficient.
The calcs I used assume that only half of the energy is connected to the battery cycling, basically your nighttime energy costs more because a battery cycle is involved, but daytame does not use the battery

my calcs omitted the 30% tax credit

my theory is that trade companies could be trained to maintain systems like air conditioners, all systems need mechanical bypass for maintenance, so you aren't in the dark if a repair issue comes up.

I think that the Grid will stay heavily loaded with urban demand rising and the advent of electric cars, this is a strategy for maybe 30-40% of resi and rural business to unload off the grid in the next 20 years.
 
Are you referring to the poor with the latest iPhone/Android, a large flat screen TV, beer in the fridge, and a blinged out car??

PV doesn't help the poor. Its cost per kWh is no savings over the lower rates they pay.
PV was a big win for the well off when higher usage tiers were priced 3x baseline. If they put in PV which reduces or eliminates power draw from the grid for A/C or pool pump, that is no skin off the backs of the poor.

My youngest car is far older than the group at left side of this chart, and I'm way beyond the right side.
"Poor" is a lifestyle choice.

View attachment 112430

Forgive me , I will not debate “ poor is a lifestyle choice “ with a person claiming in excess of 100,000 income. You clearly have no concept of poor or the difficulties people get into from low Incomes or no incomes. The fact is capital intensive cost reduction strategies directly discriminate against the poor , they cannot afford insulation , PV solutions , etc.
 
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