New PowerMax Lithium Series Converter/Chargers

[Browneye]

20 amp circuits with 12 awg wire for 120VAC receptacles is a fairly recent phenomenon.
I wouldn't count on that.

I thought it was nec code. My fifty year old house is wired that way. All of the plug-in receptacles are on 20A breakers with 12g wire, and the lighting circuits are 15A breakers with 14g wire.
It has a silly little 100A main, but at least it has 20A outlets.

Power factor is not a huge concern for utility power. PF really comes into play with a limited source such as generator or inverter. When the powered device only uses part of the sine wave there needs to be additional apparent power to prevent overload. Converter has low power factor because the electronics are not designed to synchronize with the sine wave to use the full curve.

http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Power-Inverters/PROsine/MS20070214_pfc-whitepaper02.pdf

Does a converter/charger unit pull it's full AC load regardless of output charging amps?


In any case, I'm glad I got the 55A unit. If they had a 45 I would have gotten that.
And based on that PDF, now I know why we've kicked the breaker a couple of times running the genny with the AC on.
Probly had the converter running, AC on, and she started the microwave.

 

[John Frum]

I thought it was nec code. My fifty year old house is wired that way. All of the plug-in receptacles are on 20A breakers with 12g wire, and the lighting circuits are 15A breakers with 14g wire.
It has a silly little 100A main, but at least it has 20A outlets.

It has not been code for 50 years.
Wild guess is ~20 years.
I will let the electricians among us cite the code.

Does a converter/charger unit pull it's full AC load regardless of output charging amps?

No but they can certainly run at full rate longer than 3 hours.
Mine runs full bore for over 5 hours every night.

 

[jbird526]

20 amp circuits with 12 awg wire for 120VAC receptacles is a fairly recent phenomenon.
I wouldn't count on that.

I have to agree your comment. When I see a 120VAC outlet, I assume it is only 15 amp. Have seen too many situations where its assumed to provide 20 amp but only on a 15 amp breaker, especially on older homes. I myself still have have some old knob and tube wiring in my house as its 100 yrs old and plaster walls I just don't want to open.

 

[KG6S]

I'm using a PM3-30 for my home brew 4S-2P pack. First I dropped down the peak voltage to 14.2v and selected 3 stage charging mode. After settling in at around a 13.2v "float" voltage overnight the unit quit working (LED light off). Unplugged and re-plugged it in. Unit started working again until mid day, then LED went off. I need this since my solar isn't keeping up and I need the furnace to run (12v) to keep from freezing. I switched to constant voltage mode of 14.1V for now until my Victron IP 22 -30A charger shows up this week. It's seems to be working in fixed voltage mode for now -- but I don't want to leave it at this voltage for more than this week and don't trust it to keep working. For a less mission critical application, it would be just fine. The Victron is $80 more expensive, but a ruined battery pack and freezing temps are worth the extra piece of mind that Victron brings.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

I'm using a PM3-30 for my home brew 4S-2P pack. First I dropped down the peak voltage to 14.2v and selected 3 stage charging mode. After settling in at around a 13.2v "float" voltage overnight the unit quit working (LED light off).

It did not "quit working." This is normal behavior. If no current is flowing from the supply (battery voltage is above 13.2V), then the LED goes out. Had your battery voltage dropped to 13.2V, green LED would have re-lit as current flowed, and it would have supplied up to 30A to maintain 13.2V.

Unplugged and re-plugged it in. Unit started working again until mid day, then LED went off.

You reset it to re-run the bulk/absorp/float phases. Once it dropped to 13.2V, LED out due to no current flowing.

I need this since my solar isn't keeping up and I need the furnace to run (12v) to keep from freezing. I switched to constant voltage mode of 14.1V

This is too high. If you set to 13.8V, you should be able to maintain the battery at 98%+ without over-charging it.

for now until my Victron IP 22 -30A charger shows up this week. It's seems to be working in fixed voltage mode for now -- but I don't want to leave it at this voltage for more than this week and don't trust it to keep working.

Your PM3 is behaving correctly. There is no reason to mistrust it. I have observed this behavior for the 4 years I've owned mine.

Battery voltage > PM3 set voltage = LED off.

For a less mission critical application, it would be just fine. The Victron is $80 more expensive, but a ruined battery pack and freezing temps are worth the extra piece of mind that Victron brings.

If you plan to rely on the feature, confirm these units have robust freezing temp protection. The Victron MPPT do NOT. The MPPT takes a temperature snapshot of the MPPT when they first turn on and behave accordingly. If battery temperature were to drop during the day, the MPPT would not terminate charging if the battery dropped below freezing. Since these are often coupled with a BMV, smartshunt or smart battery sense, it's rarely an issue as these feed live temperature data to the MPPT and the MPPT behaves accordingly.

I do not see that the smart chargers have a separate temperature sensor, so if the charger is not the same temperature as the battery, it may not behave as desired.

Make sure temperature compensation is disabled.

 

[KG6S]

It did not "quit working." This is normal behavior. If no current is flowing from the supply (battery voltage is above 13.2V), then the LED goes out. Had your battery voltage dropped to 13.2V, green LED would have re-lit as current flowed, and it would have supplied up to 30A to maintain 13.2V.



You reset it to re-run the bulk/absorp/float phases. Once it dropped to 13.2V, LED out due to no current flowing.



This is too high. If you set to 13.8V, you should be able to maintain the battery at 98%+ without over-charging it.



Your PM3 is behaving correctly. There is no reason to mistrust it. I have observed this behavior for the 4 years I've owned mine.

Battery voltage > PM3 set voltage = LED off.



If you plan to rely on the feature, confirm these units have robust freezing temp protection. The Victron MPPT do NOT. The MPPT takes a temperature snapshot of the MPPT when they first turn on and behave accordingly. If battery temperature were to drop during the day, the MPPT would not terminate charging if the battery dropped below freezing. Since these are often coupled with a BMV, smartshunt or smart battery sense, it's rarely an issue as these feed live temperature data to the MPPT and the MPPT behaves accordingly.

I do not see that the smart chargers have a separate temperature sensor, so if the charger is not the same temperature as the battery, it may not behave as desired.

Make sure temperature compensation is disabled.

You're right about the LED light. I confirmed this by using the trim pot to drop the output voltage and light went off in fixed mode. Went back on as I increased the voltage over the battery voltage.

My battery, the Victron BMV and the charger are all in heated space. 10-4 on the MPPTs and I have those on low temp charge cutoff (at 4 C) fed from the SmartBatterySense sense since the the Daly BMS does not have low temp cutoff. .

Thanks for the voltage recommendation. Changed it.

 

[jbird526]

I may have to put a pin in this conversation for a year or two. After discussing budgetary concerns with the RV owner I am trying to help, may be staying with AGM for the time being.

I know in the long run, going with LFP is a better choice but currently not my wallet that is funding the project.

What I am considering suggesting is swap out the 2 80ah AGM's there now and replace with 2 200ah MighttyMax AGS's. I'll have to extend the battery tray but from another post and what I see underneath the floor, it can be done.

Do have a side question about the PD 9200 series of charges. From the following manual (https://www.progressivedyn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/109821F-english.pdf) it appears the charge states are the following:

Boost: 14.4v
Absorption: 13.6
Float: 13.2



Think I saw a comment by Snoobler where Equalize mode on the PD 9200's is not a real equalize, just another boost?

Anyway, if an MPPT controller were to be added later with a few PV panels, would it be best to match the state voltage exactly on the MPPT controller? Guess there are multiple variables including voltage drop over wire length that may not allow the MPPT controller and the PD Charger to read exactly the same battery voltage and go into different charge states as they may not match?

 

[sunshine_eggo]

I may have to put a pin in this conversation for a year or two. After discussing budgetary concerns with the RV owner I am trying to help, may be staying with AGM for the time being.

I know in the long run, going with LFP is a better choice but currently not my wallet that is funding the project.

What I am considering suggesting is swap out the 2 80ah AGM's there now and replace with 2 200ah MighttyMax AGS's. I'll have to extend the battery tray but from another post and what I see underneath the floor, it can be done.

Do have a side question about the PD 9200 series of charges. From the following manual (https://www.progressivedyn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/109821F-english.pdf) it appears the charge states are the following:

Boost: 14.4v
Absorption: 13.6
Float: 13.2

View attachment 75583

Think I saw a comment by Snoobler where Equalize mode on the PD 9200's is not a real equalize, just another boost?

Anyway, if an MPPT controller were to be added later with a few PV panels, would it be best to match the state voltage exactly on the MPPT controller? Guess there are multiple variables including voltage drop over wire length that may not allow the MPPT controller and the PD Charger to read exactly the same battery voltage and go into different charge states as they may not match?

Based on the chart, "equalize" simply returns to the 14.4V every 21 hours. With a FLA/AGM/GEL "stored" at 13.2V, they will lose charge. The Equalize is just a 15 minute top-off to 14.4V every 21 hours. Good for lead-acid. Won't make much of a difference to LFP.

I would program the MPPT to whatever I wanted, independent of the converter, which is 13.8-14.4V absorb and 13.6V float. Tail current: 0.05C.

13.8V is if you want to charge to 98%+ over a long period of time and maximize cycle life.

14.0-14.4 for progressively faster charge times (14.4V for generator to minimize run time).

Snoobler also had this to say about multiple charge sources:

Charging from multiple sources

One can have as many independent charging sources running concurrently as they like provided they are programmed properly for the voltage of one's battery bank. Examples (some or all at once, even multiples of a single type, different brands, etc.): Solar PV via MPPT Solar PV via PWM AC-DC...

diysolarforum.com

 

[Browneye]

Re-did some system wiring both 120 and 12V for battery leads. Added a switched outlet for the new PM3 converter so I can manually shut it off when on shorepower or generator.

Plugged it in and tested output voltage- on 2-stage: it puts out 14.5 for about 30 seconds and then switches to 13.5. I assume with no battery connected it goes to float - so that is factory settings for lifepo 2-stage charging.

The voltage adjuster seems to only do so in the fixed voltage setting, not for the 2 or 3 stage settings. In fixed it will adjust from 13 to 16.2. Fixed set at 14.4 might be another option, manually power it off when pack reaches full charge.

I assume it is therefore not adjustable. But should be okay in 2-stage for lifepo.

I moved my genset lead to the chassis/start battery and removed the isolator/combiner solenoid so the alternator won’t be connecting to the new house lifepo pack.

The cardboard represents the battery footprint. This is under the settee in the RV.

 

[robby]

Nice charger, I like the fact that the current can be adjusted.
I wish some company would build a 120VAC in 48Vdc 50A adjustable version of these chargers with a NEMA L5-30P plug adapter end and a regular 120V plug end. If the regular one is used then limit the current to 20A but if the Nema is used let the full 50A be available,
In any emergency cases when solar may be offline I would prefer to charge a 20KWh bank faster in the day using two Honda EU2200is or an EU3000is.
That way at night I can fully run off of battery.

 

[John Frum]

Nice charger, I like the fact that the current can be adjusted.

The only way the current can be adjusted on the the powermax inverters is by adjusting the voltage.

 

[Browneye]

The only way the current can be adjusted on the the powermax inverters is by adjusting the voltage.

As I understand it, yes. And you cannot adjust the voltages in the 2 stage and 3 stage setting - only in the fixed voltage output - I just checked it again. As I understand these things they ramp up amps as it senses resistance from the battery. Disconnected it just goes into float mode.

The instructions say you can change the voltage and then power it on in another setting and it will change it - not the case.
I'm going to call them tomorrow, pick their brain and see if I'm missing something. Otherwise the default is going to have to do, unless you want to babysit it at a higher fixed voltage and then just turn it off.

I'm a little disappointed.
Then again the IQ4 in the IOTA was only able to be disabled by breaking the lead off the board. So it's kaput. And there are no pots on that thing to adjust, AT ALL. I'll pull the fuses out and supply cable out of it before it gets trashed.

Can anyone confirm if the Powermax pulls full 120V 13amps and limits output for 12 volt charging? Or is it a variable draw based on the load/charging amps? I assume the latter, and also the heat gained runs a thermo switch for the fan. Obviously it wouldn't kick on unless there was a load.

My cables are coming so I'll hook it up to the batteries and play with it some more.

 

[time2roll]

I believe the powermax draws maximum current during full output and supply voltage is sagging to maybe 108 volts.
Input draw will reduce as the load is reduced.

 

[robby]

The only way the current can be adjusted on the the powermax inverters is by adjusting the voltage.

My mistake, I thought it said the current was adjustable.

 

[Browneye]

I may have to put a pin in this conversation for a year or two. After discussing budgetary concerns with the RV owner I am trying to help, may be staying with AGM for the time being.

I know in the long run, going with LFP is a better choice but currently not my wallet that is funding the project.

What I am considering suggesting is swap out the 2 80ah AGM's there now and replace with 2 200ah MighttyMax AGS's. I'll have to extend the battery tray but from another post and what I see underneath the floor, it can be done.

Do have a side question about the PD 9200 series of charges. From the following manual (https://www.progressivedyn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/109821F-english.pdf) it appears the charge states are the following:

Boost: 14.4v
Absorption: 13.6
Float: 13.2

View attachment 75583

Think I saw a comment by Snoobler where Equalize mode on the PD 9200's is not a real equalize, just another boost?

Anyway, if an MPPT controller were to be added later with a few PV panels, would it be best to match the state voltage exactly on the MPPT controller? Guess there are multiple variables including voltage drop over wire length that may not allow the MPPT controller and the PD Charger to read exactly the same battery voltage and go into different charge states as they may not match?

A quick search shows the mighty-max 200a agm are about $300 each. For another $100 over the price for two, you could get a Ampere-Time 200A lifepo pack. That's what I would do. So you might get 6 or 8 years out of the AGM's, but you still have to live with the size and weight, the voltage sag on inverter, and only 50% usable unless you can live with even shorter life. ONE lifepo pack of 200A will give you nearly the same usable for a half the size and a quarter of the weight, and way out-perform them.

Good info on the multiple charge sources. A lot of people will use some kind of 120V charging unit, either a stand alone charger, or a converter/charger power supply unit, to get the pack fully recovered if even just to 80-90%, and let a solar charge controller top them up. The nice thing about lifepo is there is no memory factor, they don't need to be fully charged, in fact they actually do better not being fully discharged OR fully charged.

Any FLA charger that does equalize is out for AGM or lifepo.

 

[Browneye]

I just spoke with Graham at PowerMax about the voltage setting and he actually thought they designed the unit to be able to adjust output voltage for all charge modes. He pulled one off the shelf and tested it and confirmed you can only adjust voltage in the fixed output mode. So he's going to inquire with their design engineers and find out what's up. Will let me know. And he agreed the whole idea was to be able fine tune the unit to match various battery manufacturer's requirements, regardless of who they are. Some like 14.4, 14.0, some 14.6, etc.

The fixed out put he thought was also a fixed current. A full voltage and current charge mode. I won't be able to confirm that until I connect it, but not sure I want to test it and wait for a BMS to shut down. So I can't confirm for sure how this mode works.

He did say it does have battery load sensing and adjusts current as the battery reaches full charge. At some point there is switches to it's float level - again, I won't know when that is or at what level of charge until I actually connect it to a lifepo pack.

Apparently there is another adjustable pot inside the unit, so perhaps it's possible to turn the whole thing down a couple of tenths of a voltage, conceivably to get a one volt drop from 14.4/13.4. The whole idea of the external adjustable pot was to be able to do this. It wasn't their intention to bump your BMS every time you try to charge your battery pack.

 

[Browneye]

Confused by the text saying 14.6V and the chart saying 14.3V.

If the absorption time is longer than the 3phase method AND it's 14.6V, it's a better option.

If it's really 14.3V, and the absorption phase isn't longer, then it's actually worse than the 3phase defaults.

IMHO, even with the better 2 phase option as I stated it, if this costs significantly more, it's likely not worth it.

View attachment 74323

I suspect this is what they intended, but the final product is just slightly different. It definitely does have a 1-volt drop from absorb to float, and it is definitely factory set for 14.6 to 13.6 for the 2-stage 'lifepo' mode.

I hope they come back with a solution. Maybe I'll take the cover off mine and have a look inside. I'm good with a 1-volt drop, but would like to see it start at 14.4 instead of 14.6 for my Eve cells with Overkill BMS.

The cell specs definitely call for 14.6 max charge voltage for 4S. And it would be a bummer if the BMS constantly shut down for over-voltage. I don't think I can rely on voltage drop in my connection - I'll have 4awg lead wires about a foot and a half long, a shunt on the neg side and a anl fuse on the plus side, right to the BMS.

PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS

Item	Data information
Model	EVE LF230 230Ah 3.2V Battery Cell
Real Capacity	230Ah
Nominal Voltage	3.2v
Max Discharge Current	1C/ 230A
Max Charge Voltage	3.65v
AC Impedance Resistance	≤0.25mΩ
Charging Temperature	-5-60℃
Discharging Temperature	-30-60℃
Cycle Life	≥ 3000 times
Weight	4.5kg
Dimensions (L*W*H)	174*54*205mm

 

[sunshine_eggo]

14.6 is too prone to tripping a BMS OVP. 14.4 is much less of a hassle.

 

[jbird526]

A quick search shows the mighty-max 200a agm are about $300 each. For another $100 over the price for two, you could get a Ampere-Time 200A lifepo pack. That's what I would do. So you might get 6 or 8 years out of the AGM's, but you still have to live with the size and weight, the voltage sag on inverter, and only 50% usable unless you can live with even shorter life. ONE lifepo pack of 200A will give you nearly the same usable for a half the size and a quarter of the weight, and way out-perform them.

Agree about the $100 diff in what would be a near identical 200ah of usable battery. Issue with Ampere-Time is they do not have a functioning low temp cutoff. Would feel more comfortable sending someone else out on the road with an SOK 206ah at $1029.

What I may also not be able to clear is a $200 upgrade on the PD lithium charger and since the RV also charges from alternator another $220 for a Victron Orion 12/12-30 DC to DC charger to replace the current.

 

[Browneye]

Agree about the $100 diff in what would be a near identical 200ah of usable battery. Issue with Ampere-Time is they do not have a functioning low temp cutoff. Would feel more comfortable sending someone else out on the road with an SOK 206ah at $1029.

What I may also not be able to clear is a $200 upgrade on the PD lithium charger and since the RV also charges from alternator another $220 for a Victron Orion 12/12-30 DC to DC charger to replace the current.

I hear yea...what I've been grappling with since all this upgrade project of mine started.

Do they have solar panels too? Potentially they could do the bulk of charging with a regular 120V plug-in smart charger to serve as backup.
This is the route I decided to go with, but ended up getting the new converter/charger. I would have gotten one of the Victron smart chargers, but decided I wanted a power supply and the full 55 amps of charging when plugged in or with the generator. This way if the pack gets really low I can start the genny and get a quick blast to the pack. And why I wanted the generator lead on the chassis battery - that was simply moving the cable from the remote shut-down solenoid over to the chassis connect post that replaced the isolator/combiner.

For now I'm not going to do alternator charging. If we have any generator run time our battery pack will charge pretty fast - at least get it to a safe level for solar to resume, or for overnight, or to the next campground with hookups, for example.

If I decide I really do want some alternator charging I thought I could get by with the 18A one, they're right about $100. I think the Victron smart charger in 30A is right about $150. For alternator charging, I would choose the Orion dc to dc over the renogy one.

How much inverter power do they need? What is daily or overnight power consumption estimated to be?

The converter/charger unit they currently have would probably serve as a reasonable charge source, especially with a smart solar charger to fine tune full top up.

EDIT: I'm with you on the SOK. I was ready to pull the trigger on a plastic case version. It's still a lot of money. And there are other ways to deal with low-temp protection. For me, putting the unit in the living space solves that issue, unless the rig sits in storage in a cold climate. Here in so-Cal it's a non-issue, but if we move up to Washington that could be an issue. I think I would install some kind of heating pad or something if that was the case.