MisterSandals
Participation Medalist
I understand you want 12V battery with 4 in parallel. There are good and bad ways of connecting them in parallel. Here is a resource that explains it:
Newbie here..
- Thread starter mark46808
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MisterSandals
Participation Medalist
Most appliances do not function well or sometimes not at all with modified sine wave. Appliances with motors are notorious for not running well on MSW. Microwaves will use up to 50% more power on MSW than PSW.
If you're going to setup your household, you REALLY should strongly consider using a PSW inverter (yea, they are much more expensive).
Will a modified wave inverter work for me?
[see [URL='https://diysolarforum.com/threads/frequently-asked-questions.70/']Forum Thread[/URL] this is taken from for more] Probably not. Any device that uses magnetics (e.g., transformers, motors, induction stoves, computers, TVs, medical equipment) will either not work, work poorly, draw...
diysolarforum.com
mark46808
Newbie
Thank you for the link. Did not know about this... many thanks
12VoltInstalls
life passes by too quickly to not live in freedom
I would not buy that inverter either- simply because it is a modified sine wave device.
mark46808
Newbie
Thanks..
mark46808
Newbie
What happens when i go to 48v got info on that.....
MisterSandals
Participation Medalist
With 4 batteries in series for 48V, there is only one way to wire it.
mark46808
Newbie
Ok so i played enough with the inverter(not what i wanted, but its what i got. Learn small build bigger) now i need to learn about solar panels. Can i use solar panels for my 12v as well as my future 48v system?? Its the solar controler that controls that. No? Ye i need to learn about controlers. Anyone point to the learning postes... thanks
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2020
- Messages
- 20,503
Time to start learning.
You've got four batteries in parallel, inverter connected at one end. That draws current unevenly.
Inverter connected to diagonally opposite ends would be an improvement. For 2 batteries it's perfect. For 4 batteries, there is a better way.
2 batteries in parallel. 2 more batteries in parallel. Connect those two pairs by diagonal corners.
Connect inverter such that path through each battery sees same length of cable (cables won't be in same order for each, but total path length will be the same.)
edit: Oh, reading further, Mr. Sandals just addressed this.
You can buy a Solar Charge Controller (SCC) that will work for 12, 24 or 48v to allow for future growth.
I would strongly suggest a Maximum Power Point (MPPT) SCC.
The PCM60X on this page is just one example :
watts247.com
As you can see, it will handle UP TO 3000w of solar panels depending on voltage used.
You would connect your solar panels in series and/or parallel to respect the 150v maximum allowed for this particular model.
If/when you grow past 3kW solar panel farm you add another.
If you were to go to 48v from the start you could get a brand name SCC that does 48v only :
www.solar-electric.com
And, if you’re going to end up at 48v just go for it from the start so you don’t have to buy a different inverter later.
I would strongly suggest a Maximum Power Point (MPPT) SCC.
The PCM60X on this page is just one example :
Charge Controllers – Watts247 Wholesale
watts247.com
As you can see, it will handle UP TO 3000w of solar panels depending on voltage used.
You would connect your solar panels in series and/or parallel to respect the 150v maximum allowed for this particular model.
If/when you grow past 3kW solar panel farm you add another.
If you were to go to 48v from the start you could get a brand name SCC that does 48v only :
Victron Energy SmartSolar MPPT 100/20 Solar Charge Controller 48VDC at 20 Amps
Part Number: SCC110020160R
www.solar-electric.com
And, if you’re going to end up at 48v just go for it from the start so you don’t have to buy a different inverter later.
Last edited:
D
Deleted member 1888
Guest
Ok Ill tell you what others will not, this is a starter system that you can add to as you can afford it. Its a 48v 5000w inverter with a MPPT solar controller built into it. With this you can get the ball rolling and add more panels to it, batteries, and one you need more power add another inverter to it. If you have already perched stuff I would advise you to return it(keep the batteries) as you don't know the quality of the parts you have. The system im showing you is used world wide and has a track record. Also the company selling it here in the US will back it up with a warranty and support.
Next Go with used solar panels if you are on a budget, they still work and I use them myself. Just avoid the panels that have snail trails on them as they are on there way out. Buy as many as you can afford now or save up a few months to make 1 big order depending on how much shipping is at the time. With this inverter you can build up to a 6000w of panels with a 5000w split phase. With that you can run your well pump and other things. If you still need more then add another inverter later and then build up to 12000w of panels and you will have it on 10000w of inverter power. If you need more power than that you need to take a step back and figure out how to use less power.
Sorry for the long winded answer it just most wont tell you what to buy until you do an energy audit. Problem is most ppl dont know how to due that. So I just tell you a good size starter system that you can expand later on.
Inverter/MPPT all in one
Used solar panels
store.santansolar.com
Vids on how to set up the inverter
Next Go with used solar panels if you are on a budget, they still work and I use them myself. Just avoid the panels that have snail trails on them as they are on there way out. Buy as many as you can afford now or save up a few months to make 1 big order depending on how much shipping is at the time. With this inverter you can build up to a 6000w of panels with a 5000w split phase. With that you can run your well pump and other things. If you still need more then add another inverter later and then build up to 12000w of panels and you will have it on 10000w of inverter power. If you need more power than that you need to take a step back and figure out how to use less power.
Sorry for the long winded answer it just most wont tell you what to buy until you do an energy audit. Problem is most ppl dont know how to due that. So I just tell you a good size starter system that you can expand later on.
Inverter/MPPT all in one
GROWATT 5kW 5000ES (USA Model) OFF GRID INVERTER & Growatt Transformer Kit
5000W LVM- ES Off-Grid 240V GROWATT Inverter with Solar Charge Controller + integrated GROWATT Split Phase Transformer for true 120V/240V Split Phase Electricity! The GROWATT SPF 5000W LVM-ES is the all-in-one inverter/charger you need to take control of your energy bill. The 5000ES can work...
www.signaturesolar.com
Solar Panels | SanTan Solar
store.santansolar.com
mark46808
Newbie
No worries on the long post. I soak it all up.. thank you for taking time to help....Ok Ill tell you what others will not, this is a starter system that you can add to as you can afford it. Its a 48v 5000w inverter with a MPPT solar controller built into it. With this you can get the ball rolling and add more panels to it, batteries, and one you need more power add another inverter to it. If you have already perched stuff I would advise you to return it(keep the batteries) as you don't know the quality of the parts you have. The system im showing you is used world wide and has a track record. Also the company selling it here in the US will back it up with a warranty and support.
Next Go with used solar panels if you are on a budget, they still work and I use them myself. Just avoid the panels that have snail trails on them as they are on there way out. Buy as many as you can afford now or save up a few months to make 1 big order depending on how much shipping is at the time. With this inverter you can build up to a 6000w of panels with a 5000w split phase. With that you can run your well pump and other things. If you still need more then add another inverter later and then build up to 12000w of panels and you will have it on 10000w of inverter power. If you need more power than that you need to take a step back and figure out how to use less power.
Sorry for the long winded answer it just most wont tell you what to buy until you do an energy audit. Problem is most ppl dont know how to due that. So I just tell you a good size starter system that you can expand later on.
Inverter/MPPT all in one
Used solar panelsGROWATT 5kW 5000ES (USA Model) OFF GRID INVERTER & Growatt Transformer Kit
5000W LVM- ES Off-Grid 240V GROWATT Inverter with Solar Charge Controller + integrated GROWATT Split Phase Transformer for true 120V/240V Split Phase Electricity! The GROWATT SPF 5000W LVM-ES is the all-in-one inverter/charger you need to take control of your energy bill. The 5000ES can work...www.signaturesolar.com
Vids on how to set up the inverterSolar Panels | SanTan Solar
Rednecktek
Solar Wizard
@PsychoticEpisode : That's a starter system?? Ouch! $1300 + $1600 in batteries? That's a pretty darned steep entry price for most people. 
@mark46808 : The power audit is a starting point for a reason, and it provides 4 vital things you'll need to know for building a system. You start with what you have/need now, and then add in the "Like To Have's" later and see where it all comes out. What you'll get out of the Power Audit:
1: It tells you how big your inverter needs to be so you don't waste money on something too small or way too big.
2: It tells you how big your battery bank needs to be to run your stuff, both amperage and wattage.
3: It tells you how much solar array you'll need to recharge that battery bank in a reasonable amount of time.
4: Provides a skill base that you'll use over and over again as you move up from the small starter system you have now to larger and more powerful systems.
As for the AIO systems like what @PsychoticEpisode mentions, they are MUCH easier to deal with as they take most of the guesswork and parts picking out of the equation. They're usually scalable, pretty cost effective, and pretty available online. I know that you're working with a very limited budget so definitely go with used solar panels, you can't beat the price/watt.
Understand that with small starter systems like what you've picked up so far, you're probably going to end up throwing it all in the trash in the future as you learn more and get more practice. We call that "Tuition" and I've spent a goodly amount of money on it myself.
The system voltage is really important for inverter sizing. If you're only doing about 3Kw you have the options of 24v and 48v AIO's. If you want you COULD go with a 3kw 12v inverter, but that's a LOT of amperage to deal with. If you're looking for a larger system than that you'll need to step up to 48v. The big advantage of 48v is that it uses smaller fuses and wires, the big disadvantage is that every time you want to upgrade the battery bank you have to get 4 batteries* at a time.
Definitely peruse the forums and the FAQ section in particular for the basics on how the different systems work (PWM vs MPPT, How to Power Audit, terminology, etc) to start getting a basic understanding of what we're all talking about. Doodles and notes are always a good idea, and if you're doing research and something confuses you, ask! We're here to help.
@mark46808 : The power audit is a starting point for a reason, and it provides 4 vital things you'll need to know for building a system. You start with what you have/need now, and then add in the "Like To Have's" later and see where it all comes out. What you'll get out of the Power Audit:
1: It tells you how big your inverter needs to be so you don't waste money on something too small or way too big.
2: It tells you how big your battery bank needs to be to run your stuff, both amperage and wattage.
3: It tells you how much solar array you'll need to recharge that battery bank in a reasonable amount of time.
4: Provides a skill base that you'll use over and over again as you move up from the small starter system you have now to larger and more powerful systems.
As for the AIO systems like what @PsychoticEpisode mentions, they are MUCH easier to deal with as they take most of the guesswork and parts picking out of the equation. They're usually scalable, pretty cost effective, and pretty available online. I know that you're working with a very limited budget so definitely go with used solar panels, you can't beat the price/watt.
Understand that with small starter systems like what you've picked up so far, you're probably going to end up throwing it all in the trash in the future as you learn more and get more practice. We call that "Tuition" and I've spent a goodly amount of money on it myself.
The system voltage is really important for inverter sizing. If you're only doing about 3Kw you have the options of 24v and 48v AIO's. If you want you COULD go with a 3kw 12v inverter, but that's a LOT of amperage to deal with. If you're looking for a larger system than that you'll need to step up to 48v. The big advantage of 48v is that it uses smaller fuses and wires, the big disadvantage is that every time you want to upgrade the battery bank you have to get 4 batteries* at a time.
Definitely peruse the forums and the FAQ section in particular for the basics on how the different systems work (PWM vs MPPT, How to Power Audit, terminology, etc) to start getting a basic understanding of what we're all talking about. Doodles and notes are always a good idea, and if you're doing research and something confuses you, ask! We're here to help.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2020
- Messages
- 20,503
Batteries are the worst part of the system. They cost the most and wear out soonest.
FLA golf cart batteries as have been suggested are the cheapest usable. They require topping off with distilled water, and periodic equalization. They must get fully charged regularly.
If you can get by at night with little more than an LED light, then battery only has to be big enough for that. Shut off inverter and use a DC powered light.
Inverter should have a low-battery shutdown settable to a voltage representing 50% SoC for lead-acid (or knee of the curve for lithium.)
Ideally, you run loads while sun is shining and battery is full. Battery supplies surge to start a motor, and PV powers it.
One advantage of an AOI is you should be able to set battery charge current at ideal amperage, which is probably 0.12C for FLA. It can manage extra PV, so whether loads are running or not the battery gets optimum charge current.
Doing that with individual components is possible, but only a couple brands and more expensive.
If you get a system running that hardly uses battery at all, then you could use a small AGM battery (sealed, zero maintenance.) They cost more than FLA but are more convenient. If generally never cycled, you can even use second hand automotive starter batteries from a wrecking yard; their job is to start your motor loads, would be recharged and kept floating the rest of the time. Trick is having no load at night loads (including inverter idle consumption) not in excess of PV during the day.
FLA golf cart batteries as have been suggested are the cheapest usable. They require topping off with distilled water, and periodic equalization. They must get fully charged regularly.
If you can get by at night with little more than an LED light, then battery only has to be big enough for that. Shut off inverter and use a DC powered light.
Inverter should have a low-battery shutdown settable to a voltage representing 50% SoC for lead-acid (or knee of the curve for lithium.)
Ideally, you run loads while sun is shining and battery is full. Battery supplies surge to start a motor, and PV powers it.
One advantage of an AOI is you should be able to set battery charge current at ideal amperage, which is probably 0.12C for FLA. It can manage extra PV, so whether loads are running or not the battery gets optimum charge current.
Doing that with individual components is possible, but only a couple brands and more expensive.
If you get a system running that hardly uses battery at all, then you could use a small AGM battery (sealed, zero maintenance.) They cost more than FLA but are more convenient. If generally never cycled, you can even use second hand automotive starter batteries from a wrecking yard; their job is to start your motor loads, would be recharged and kept floating the rest of the time. Trick is having no load at night loads (including inverter idle consumption) not in excess of PV during the day.
D
Deleted member 1888
Guest
You call $1300 steep? My 6000w inverter cost $3000, then my 100a MPPT cost $500. I wish I had known about the growwatt it would have saved me a ton. Its more of a wast of money to go 12v or 24v for a system that will power your home. He is not talking about just powering an RV for trips out of town or boon docking. This will be his power for his home and starting with 5000w watts is good as he may find that is all he needs.@PsychoticEpisode : That's a starter system?? Ouch! $1300 + $1600 in batteries? That's a pretty darned steep entry price for most people.
@mark46808 : The power audit is a starting point for a reason, and it provides 4 vital things you'll need to know for building a system. You start with what you have/need now, and then add in the "Like To Have's" later and see where it all comes out. What you'll get out of the Power Audit:
As for the audit that will only help so much, when I did one I found I used over 30000w. What the audit did not tell me that that I did not NEED 30k watts of power. I started small and built up until all the things I really did need were covered, and I found that 6000w was more than enough for me.
Sometimes ppl just need a base level starting point, if someone had just tole me get the growwatt I would have saved a ton of money.
mark46808
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