NEWS: Florida legislature considers ending solar net metering (Nov.23.2021)

MurphyGuy

Solar Addict
I hope the lower battery prices turn out to be true but...
I get a nagging feeling that we may be approaching a low in the battery prices right now. Even if the Governments across the Globe are 50% as committed to lowering carbon emissions as they claim to be, it's still going to cause a mass rush on PV panels and Batteries for the next 20 years. I see prices dropping a bit more in the next few years but then as demand goes past supply it's going to start to reverse. Also once Governments see the fuel tax revenues start decreasing they are going to find ways to bridge the loss by extracting money from the green energy sector.
I think (I'm hoping), that the battery market will split into two groups of "easy" and "You need to be a craftsman"..

This is why Nissan Leaf cells are so damn popular.. they are the "easy" group because any idiot can screw a nut onto a threaded stud..

But most large format EV cells have welded tabs.. and one needs to have some basic skills, and be willing to put the effort in, to use them.
 

robby

Solar Addict
I think (I'm hoping), that the battery market will split into two groups of "easy" and "You need to be a craftsman"..

This is why Nissan Leaf cells are so damn popular.. they are the "easy" group because any idiot can screw a nut onto a threaded stud..

But most large format EV cells have welded tabs.. and one needs to have some basic skills, and be willing to put the effort in, to use them.
Interesting idea. I never thought about the used battery market and how the ever increasing demand for new batteries will eventually translate into a huge surplus of used batteries.
Recycling is going to be a huge problem for automakers. With that in mind I would think that they will invest in companies that can do it and make a profit. Profits on cells sold whole are a lot higher than grinding batteries down to their raw materials.
 
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Supervstech

Administrator
Staff member
Moderator
Isn’t Florida the same state that will condemn any residence that isn’t connected to the grid? So, home solar needs to be grid tied, or a portion of the home must be powered by the grid… or the state takes your home away…
 

BobR

Solar Enthusiast
Isn’t Florida the same state that will condemn any residence that isn’t connected to the grid? So, home solar needs to be grid tied, or a portion of the home must be powered by the grid… or the state takes your home away…
I don't believe that's true.
 

BobR

Solar Enthusiast
"Florida – YES! Florida is awesome for living off grid. Contrary to popular belief, it is NOT illegal to live off grid in Florida. Just like anywhere else in the USA you must have a proper septic system and a clean water source.


Many people have exaggerated on a story going around the internet that Florida doesn’t allow off grid living, but the story is completely false. That story has been published and republished by people who have ulterior motives and agendas and those who simply didn’t know any better. Most of those who posted the story did so only to make money off the advertising by spreading bogus, non-factual stories which spread like wildfire."
 

Steve_S

Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
The hours of solar production does not match the full peak use periods. They still need Peak Power plants, but with solar their hours of operation are reduced. They can't pay for themselves with fewer hours of operation.
Wiki Duck Curve
Confronting the Duck Curve
Take some time and read what is happening in Australia. The huge battery banks have already been paid off but new ones are going in as well. Many areas don't use peakers and actually export to other Oz States... They are not the only ones... Grid Storage in various forms (battery, pumped Hydeo or Pressure Air and others do work and are in use, some like Pumped Hydro is actually old tech now updated.
 

JWLV

One Million Dollars!
What they should do is remove companies that LEASE solar from net metering. Because they are the ones that benefit and make money from net metering.
 

JWLV

One Million Dollars!
I think (I'm hoping), that the battery market will split into two groups of "easy" and "You need to be a craftsman"..

This is why Nissan Leaf cells are so damn popular.. they are the "easy" group because any idiot can screw a nut onto a threaded stud..

But most large format EV cells have welded tabs.. and one needs to have some basic skills, and be willing to put the effort in, to use them.

That is indeed interesting! I have a 2012 Nissan Leaf that will approach its end of life in a few more years. I expect the battery will degrade to about 50% by then, which would only give me about 35-40 miles per charge. The resell/trade-in value at that time will be close to nothing.
 

robby

Solar Addict
We have to consider both sides of the argument, as they are both Valid. My Brother in-law works in management at a power company and he tells me that Solar is hammering them big time and they are trully worried about the gains it is making. As many of you know the Generators can not just be switched off and on depending on demand. They evidently take hours to be prepare for startup.
He was saying that Solar is making them recalculate how much available energy they keep online and since the consumption has now become a day to day weather dependent event. They either go on the side of caution and loose money or take a chance that it will always be sunny and shutdown some systems thereby making money.
 

MurphyGuy

Solar Addict
We have to consider both sides of the argument, as they are both Valid. My Brother in-law works in management at a power company and he tells me that Solar is hammering them big time and they are trully worried about the gains it is making. As many of you know the Generators can not just be switched off and on depending on demand. They evidently take hours to be prepare for startup.
He was saying that Solar is making them recalculate how much available energy they keep online and since the consumption has now become a day to day weather dependent event. They either go on the side of caution and loose money or take a chance that it will always be sunny and shutdown some systems thereby making money.
They just need an energy buffer.. The whole "instant demand" production thing has never been reliable in any engineering subject.. I'm surprised it has lasted this long.

Buffers shouldn't be too difficult to create.. Flywheel energy storage, the elevation of various masses like concrete or water, batteries, etc.

But they don't WANT that buffer because having it removes their excuses for monopolizing energy, so to that end, they will throw up every obstacle they can find...
My 9 year old does the same thing when I tell her to clean her room...
 

Steve_S

Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
My 9 year old does the same thing when I tell her to clean her room...
Likely uses far more intelligent arguments and rationalizations.

All those yammering about Solar Rebates and how it's such a give away have never looked into it. You only get a rebate on TAX Owed after filling IF you do not have enough or ANY tax refund, you get NOTHING ! So to get the actual Tax Credit Rebate you have to owe that much in Income Taxes or you only get up to what you owe IF anything. HOW PRECIOUS Indeed.

One of several REFS but this is simplest to follow: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/11/2...uldnt-pay-more-for-solar-congress-can-fix-it/
 

MurphyGuy

Solar Addict
Likely uses far more intelligent arguments and rationalizations.
You would be amazed.. I taught her to play chess when she was 5 years old.. Almost 4 years later, I have to actually pay attention and strategize to beat her now... she thinks several moves ahead and she's a sneaky little $hit..

And then she employs those same skills with everything else in life.. The excuses I get to avoid cleaning her room are not normal for an 8 year old...
 

tigerwillow1

Solar Enthusiast
Is net metering a subsidy? Who does it benefit and how?
It's a subsidy that benefits me in two ways:

1. Power company is providing me with a free AC storage battery.
2. Being close to net zero on an annual basis, I'm not paying to maintain the infrastructure that's there for me to fire up my 20kW furnace elements, electric dryer, electric water heater, and various other things at the same time, whenever I want to.

Possibly the only government mandated redistribution scheme I've even been on the winning end of.
 

robby

Solar Addict
Right I get that, and see benefit, and that's good, but generally every benefit has a liability. So who gets the liability, who pays for it?
Meh I know I have been paying way to much for years so that is why I went with Solar. I see the problems they are facing but at the same time I am really loving being mostly energy independent.

I got my first bonus feel good moment with my Hybrid Inverter on Monday night.
I was talking to a friend on the phone when I heard a weird alarm pipping sound from a house in the neighborhood.
About a minute later my phone gets a notification and I ask my friend to hold a sec while I see what the message is.
Turns out to be a Power Outage notification from the App. I pull back a curtain and look and the whole community is pitch black except for my house :). The power was out for 3+ hours and man was it sweet not to even notice the outage. My PC wasn't even on a UPS and it did not even blink. The wife said she saw a quick dip in one light but did not think anything of it.
Life is good on Solar.
 

tigerwillow1

Solar Enthusiast
So who gets the liability, who pays for it?
Every state has their own programs and I'm doing a bit of educated guessing here. In my case, the state installation rebates and tax credits would be funded by state tax money that could have instead gone to lower taxes or other programs. Same thing for the federal tax credit. The utility sponsored installation credits and ongoing infrastructure costs are borne by my neighbors and the other ratepayers. I find it somewhat similar to a program we have to subsidize medial expenses for low income people. The program is funded by a tax on medical care and health insurance premiums. Stated differently, the program that exists because medical expenses are too high drives up the cost of medical expenses. The big difference is that the solar incentives go to people who are able to pay their electric bill, driving up the cost to those who are struggling to pay it.

My utility provided AC storage battery isn't only free, it operates for me at 100% efficiency. In reality some of that power goes up in heat, and it's somebody other than me who is paying for it. And as in the post just above, I have an "almost" full house UPS. When the power goes out I usually don't know it until a neighbor calls to see if my power is out. Thank you taxpayers and ratepayers for paying for about half of it up front, and the other half on an ongoing monthly basis.
 

houseofancients

Solar Addict
You would be amazed.. I taught her to play chess when she was 5 years old.. Almost 4 years later, I have to actually pay attention and strategize to beat her now... she thinks several moves ahead and she's a sneaky little $hit..

And then she employs those same skills with everything else in life.. The excuses I get to avoid cleaning her room are not normal for an 8 year old...
i feel for you, she'll be a hand full ;)
 

svetz

Works in theory! Practice? That's something else
It's a subsidy that benefits me in two ways:...1. Power company is providing me with a free AC storage battery....
Not in Florida. Grid maintenance is a separate line item on your bill.
When you're exporting power you're reducing their fuel costs and making money.
What you use it at night you get charged for, so it's a business transaction and not a free battery per se - that's their marketing regarding it.

... My Brother in-law works in management at a power company and he tells me that Solar is hammering them big time and they are trully worried about the gains it is making.
They should be worried, we're on the road to NetZero They need to adapt like BP (which changed from British Petroleum to Beyond Petroleum).

... As many of you know the Generators can not just be switched off and on depending on demand....
That's true for nuclear and somewhat true for coal, but just as your car can ramp up/down
quickly, so can natural gas turbines.

Florida is predominately natural gas (see table right ref), and the amount of solar we have is
minuscule in comparison (in 7/21 FPL reported it as 511,077 MWH).

Fuel Type
MWH 7/20​
Heavy Oil
7,443​
Light Oil
3,894​
Coal
185,425​
Gas
9,811,388​
Nuclear
2,307,655​
Solar
354,719​

They also just got a huge rate hike approved so all the subscribers can pay for new solar and ESS.
 
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BuffaloTrace

Solar Enthusiast
End the subsidies, let the true/fair cost to the individual arise out of pure market demand. My bet is solar cost would have to decrease minus all the subsidies.
 
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