NEWS: Florida legislature considers ending solar net metering (Nov.23.2021)

robby

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End the subsidies, let the true/fair cost to the individual arise out of pure market demand. My bet is solar cost would have to decrease minus all the subsidies.
If we did that Solar would die a very quick death. There is zero incentive for people in most states to spend huge sums of money on Solar when grid power is so cheap. Solar right now is a small ember flame that needs to be gently taken care of. In a few years the industry will not need subsidies as the cheap Grid energy will have gone up in price 2-3 fold from what it is now. Until then we need to keep the ball rolling.
We have already waited to long to deal with Climate Change, if we don't invest heavily in green energy we are going to find life in the summer to be down right unbearable in the future.
 

svetz

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I think he means ends the oil & gas subsidies too. Do that and considering that natural gas prices have doubled in the last year solar & wind are probably both competitive per watt-hour. The problem is ESS prices still need to fall for reliable watt-hours 24x7, not too much longer now though.
 

BuffaloTrace

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Exactly. Without the subsidies, the costs would be parity with each other, if solar gets cheaper so does gas an oil, if more money in the forms of subsidies that wouldn't have otherwise gone there (economics 101) the market would respond as it should.

Solar came about before subsidies for solar...subsidies didnt make the technology affordable, it just transferred moneys from one part of the population to the other. That's like saying fiat money makes all the technology we have around us, except that fiat money itself is just another form of technology (efficient form of money). Can debate this all day, look at any sector and see what happens when more money flows to it than wouldn't have otherwise, doesnt necessarily make it better, but definitely makes it less affordable.
That's my rant, and based on the answers to my questions I can see how net metering can greatly help people able to get in at the "current" high prices, but stop the subsidies and prices would fall, true cost would emerge, better for some, but not for others...my bet is it would benefit the many many empty roof people not able to economically take advantage of the current subsidies.
 

Hedges

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Can debate this all day, look at any sector and see what happens when more money flows to it than wouldn't have otherwise, doesnt necessarily make it better, but definitely makes it less affordable.

Education, health care, homes.
The subsidies and loan guarantees didn't make it less expensive or better, quite the opposite.

War lead to technology development that we now enjoy as PV power and cell phones, so birth of those technologies was subsidized.

I think PV makes economic sense now where utility rates are high. But maybe only with some sort of net metering. If I only get credited $0.03/kWh then charged $0.30 it doesn't make sense.

I'd rather PV competed with unsubsidized fossil fuel. In terms of subsidies, I'm thinking in particular of U.S. involvement in the Middle East, military costs and support for countries there.
 

BuffaloTrace

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Agreed, but it was the need to have a higher technological edge over the competition during war time that made PV possible, the raw resources, access to those resources, gave us the ability to harness the technology, and not the money. Imo nothing wrong with R&D, that is after all how life can be improved.

The subsidy, again, was a way of transferring said moneys from one group (taxpayers) to another (defense contractors) in order to achieve it perhaps faster than otherwise would have initially. It's possible without any war it would actually get developed faster and for it's obvious purpose of offsetting fossil fuel consumption; not powering a spy satellite. War can be argued as being wasteful and inefficient. Think of all the oil burned up in the name of campaign ventures around the world.

But I digress. Let the market decide.
 

RayfromTX

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The market is powerful but it is dumb. Sometimes we need to use our intelligence to guide the market so we can enjoy its strengths without enduring its weaknesses. By itself, the market is a very capable balancer of priorities but not without its weakness. The biggest weakness of the market is its ability to move us forward into the future. Once we are there the market is amazing. This is just one man's opinion.
 

Elaijah1

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Everything the government touches gets more expensive. End all subsidies and social programs. But slowly until gone.
 

robby

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Everything the government touches gets more expensive. End all subsidies and social programs. But slowly until gone.
Why not end all forms of taxation while your at it? It's not like we would be the only country that has no Taxes, there are lots of others. I am joking but in reality if you eliminate all social programs that would impact so many kids and throw them into homelessness, which will most likely lead them into crime. When you calculate out what it cost to help a kid to make it through until he is an adult and be productive versus what it costs to keep him in prison for 25 years if he becomes a criminal, it's a lot cheaper and certainly more humane to help people.
BTW the average costs for housing a prisoner for one year is about $30K.
 
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Tony Scott

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I enjoy net metering in Pennsylvania but realistically, it's not a sustainable program. Without revenue to maintain and upgrade the grid, power transmission companies will eventually go bankrupt.
Exactly what upgrades have they done? Digital meter’s were a way to control and increase charges through tiered billing. You know Japan has been using Hydrogen Fuel Cell technology for the home they create power on demand, people do not even connect to the grid. Ask yourself why don’t we have it here?
 
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Tony Scott

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Why not end all forms of taxation while your at it? It's not like we would be the only country that has no Taxes, there are lots of others. I am joking but in reality if you eliminate all social programs that would impact so many kids and throw them into homelessness, which will most likely lead them into crime. When you calculate out what it cost to help a kid to make it through until he is an adult and be productive versus what it costs to keep him in prison for 25 years if he becomes a criminal, it's a lot cheaper and certainly more humane to help people.
BTW the average costs for housing a prisoner for one year is about $30K.
Prison in America has become a for profit institution listed on the stock exchange. Social programs have achieved what they were intended to do, take control over people. People intentionally have children to gain more benefit and show me where crime has dropped. The earned income credit is a social program in which the government gives money to all who have children, even those that have not worked. 28 Trillion in debt, explain how these programs have helped?
 

Hedges

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Exactly what upgrades have they done? Digital meter’s were a way to control and increase charges through tiered billing. You know Japan has been using Hydrogen Fuel Cell technology for the home they create power on demand, people do not even connect to the grid. Ask yourself why don’t we have it here?

Japan is importing hydrogen (or making arrangements to). Is that created by hydro? From coal?

Some fuel cells use pure hydrogen. They are subject to contamination and have limited lifespan.
Some use natural gas (high temperature reformers). Similar lifespan issues I assume. What amortized cost per kWh for the capital equipment?
Combined Heat and Power - you heat the house but produce electricity too. Which could also backfeed the grid (if allowed.)
Of course, California is working toward phase-out of natural gas.

I started thinking about storage of hydrogen, perhaps as vegetable shortening. There is a company promoting storage in hydrocarbons. They say cheaper & safer than compressed or cryo-cooled. Relatively low round-trip efficiency, but seems to me you could reasonably store a few hundred gallons of summer sunshine for winter use.
 

MurphyGuy

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Prison in America has become a for profit institution listed on the stock exchange. Social programs have achieved what they were intended to do, take control over people. People intentionally have children to gain more benefit and show me where crime has dropped. The earned income credit is a social program in which the government gives money to all who have children, even those that have not worked. 28 Trillion in debt, explain how these programs have helped?
I agree entirely.. gov hands out way too much money.. and just gave everyone even more..

But one of the problems is that people have children they can't afford.. Blaming the parents if fine, but how do we stop the children from being harmed? Should we let the children go hungry because the parents are idiots? I can't sign up for that...

Wholesale child confiscation is a non starter.. anything "Chinese'ism" with a one child act isn't workable...

So what's the solution?
 

MurphyGuy

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Japan is importing hydrogen (or making arrangements to). Is that created by hydro? From coal?

Some fuel cells use pure hydrogen. They are subject to contamination and have limited lifespan.
Some use natural gas (high temperature reformers). Similar lifespan issues I assume. What amortized cost per kWh for the capital equipment?
Combined Heat and Power - you heat the house but produce electricity too. Which could also backfeed the grid (if allowed.)
Of course, California is working toward phase-out of natural gas.

I started thinking about storage of hydrogen, perhaps as vegetable shortening. There is a company promoting storage in hydrocarbons. They say cheaper & safer than compressed or cryo-cooled. Relatively low round-trip efficiency, but seems to me you could reasonably store a few hundred gallons of summer sunshine for winter use.

How about we just dump massive amounts of money into fusion? That's what we did when we had to beat the Soviets to the moon.. we wrote NASA a blank check and said "get it done".

We just need to do the same thing with fusion.. Instead, they have to fight tooth and nail to get funding. What we should do is write the fusion folks a blank check and remove all regulatory hurdles so they can work faster.
 

Tony Scott

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Exactly what upgrades have they done? Digital meter’s were a way to control and increase charges through tiered billing.
I agree entirely.. gov hands out way too much money.. and just gave everyone even more..

But one of the problems is that people have children they can't afford.. Blaming the parents if fine, but how do we stop the children from being harmed? Should we let the children go hungry because the parents are idiots? I can't sign up for that...

Wholesale child confiscation is a non starter.. anything "Chinese'ism" with a one child act isn't workable...

So what's the solution?
The solution is to stop paying. In the short term we will continue to take care of the kids like we are doing now. The kids today would be grandfathered in. Any more after, say January would be the parents responsibility. I see no improvement from paying these parents and people are coming here just for the benefits.
 

Brett V

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Exactly what upgrades have they done? Digital meter’s were a way to control and increase charges through tiered billing. You know Japan has been using Hydrogen Fuel Cell technology for the home they create power on demand, people do not even connect to the grid. Ask yourself why don’t we have it here?
Poles, lines, transformers, need replaced all the time. Increased capacity has to be paid for. Nothing is free.
We tried hydrogen fuel cells for remote off grid radio towers about 15 years ago. They're a logistics and maintenance nightmare.
 

Tony Scott

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Poles, lines, transformers, need replaced all the time. Increased capacity has to be paid for. Nothing is free.
We tried hydrogen fuel cells for remote off grid radio towers about 15 years ago. They're a logistics and maintenance nightmare.
We pay electric rates to cover all of that. You cannot claim more money is needed when the rates are set to cover those expenses.
 

Brett V

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We pay electric rates to cover all of that. You cannot claim more money is needed when the rates are set to cover those expenses.
So if I break even on production and usage today, I've paid Meted nothing today. Yet the grid is available to me when the sun goes down. If I produce a surplus, Meted has to pay me at retail for that power so they have made zero profit on that power. The grid still has to be operational and somebody else is paying for that infrastructure. As I originally stated, I'm taking advantage of current regulations but it' still not sustainable.
 

Tony Scott

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So if I break even on production and usage today, I've paid Meted nothing today. Yet the grid is available to me when the sun goes down. If I produce a surplus, Meted has to pay me at retail for that power so they have made zero profit on that power. The grid still has to be operational and somebody else is paying for that infrastructure. As I originally stated, I'm taking advantage of current regulations but it' still not sustainable.
You still have the meter charge and the companies are looking at stacking all kind of fees on to that charge. Some areas make people pay the electric company $5 for each kw of solar panels. If you have 5k in panels you pay $50 plus the meter charge.
 

Brett V

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You still have the meter charge and the companies are looking at stacking all kind of fees on to that charge. Some areas make people pay the electric company $5 for each kw of solar panels. If you have 5k in panels you pay $50 plus the meter charge.
My connection fee is $10 a month. I have no idea what rates are where you're getting your numbers from. Maybe it's fair, maybe it's not. My point is net metering is NOT a sustainable practice. I'm enjoying it as long as I can but I know it can't last forever.
 

Tony Scott

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My connection fee is $10 a month. I have no idea what rates are where you're getting your numbers from. Maybe it's fair, maybe it's not. My point is net metering is NOT a sustainable practice. I'm enjoying it as long as I can but I know it can't last forever.
California is looking to charge $8 per kw

 
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