NEWS: New Midnite Solar DIY Series - SCC's & Inverters (great $ too)

[SpongeboB Sinewave]

You guys may not have STARTED Trace but are the heart and soul of their best products.
Looking forward to all the new products coming down the pipe soon.
I have used your products in RE systems for many years. They're all still working great. I especially my personal SW 4024. 15 years old when I open the factory sealed box. I'm sure it will outlive me.
Thanks for the history,

Yep It was a great inverter/charger !

I did do some design on the SW series. Mainly re-designing transformers. I also made the option to make 3 phase by using 3 SW inverters. That was done by using the stacking connector and just shifting the phase by 120 degrees. I can't remember now how I did that ? Probably used a Microchip processor which the SW itself uses 3 of internally.

Good times !

 

[wild01]

Midnite's biggest problem has always been a lack of ability to rapidly develop innovative products. They come up with awesome ideas and then take so long to bring them to market that their competition had left them in the dust by the time they actually get around to releasing anything. They started showing their MN B17 modular system off at trade shows over 5 years ago, and you still cannot buy it. It was the same with the classic, they announced it years before it was available, and not to long after its release it was obsolete from a price vs features standpoint. I like their products but there is something wrong with their management/ product development structure. I don't know if it's a lack of ability to nail down one design and stick to it without constant re-engineering to add features, or just a lack of ability to troubleshoot problems that arise in beta testing or both, but until they fix that they will never be a viable option.

Additionally they seem to have gone to the 'code compliance price gouge' model to generate most of their revenue, wherein they rely on rediculous code required additions to market unnecessary products at ridiculous markups for most of their revenue generation. (Ie no exposed wiring between system components, afci BS, remote shutdown systems that cost more than the entire actual system) Rather than speaking out against these nanny state innovation crippling measures that do nothing to actually make anything safer. (As a general rule if it's legal in all other electrical wiring situations it should be legal in a solar install) (go into any OTHER industrial facility in America and tell them they cannot use cable trays between system components because they expose the wires and that's *somehow* unsafe) instead most of midnites products are custom designed to cater to these restrictive requirements, which is another reason I dislike the business in general.

 

[SpongeboB Sinewave]

Wild01, I agree about the engineering time taking so long.

I do not agree with the NEC rules all the time but in order to sell via the usual distribution channels, the equipment has to abide by the rules and the law. That part that the DIY crowd does not always care about is different than anything that needs to be inspected after installation.

 

[wild01]

Wild01, I agree about the engineering time taking so long.

I do not agree with the NEC rules all the time but in order to sell via the usual distribution channels, the equipment has to abide by the rules and the law. That part that the DIY crowd does not always care about is different than anything that needs to be inspected after installation.

I understand the seduction of NEC compliance. It's basically a forced transaction. In many regions it doesn't matter how insane the rules become it you don't comply you cannot play. But as long as the industry just complies and the is no pushback ir will just continue to get worse. It's a match made in hell, you get to make something that is relatively cheap and easy to manufacture, that is also wholly unnessesary from a safety standpoint and force people to buy it because yours is the only metal box in town with the "right sticker" on it. It's an easy government enforced monopoly. It's not just midnite that does this, but don't expect anyone to like it. Especially when it's too comply with a rule that makes no sense. Also by creating products to comply with arcane regulations that are wholly unnecessary you actually increase regulation. It's relatively easy to convince an inspector to sign off on a code variance if the "required" component doesn't exist.

So yes I get why midnite does it, I just don't respect it.

 

[SpongeboB Sinewave]

Devil's advocate... SOME installations really need to be done correctly and not all DIYers can install to be really safe. Some oversight is needed. Otherwise, insurance companies would be their own judge and jury on even more fires caused by sloppy installation.

NEC requirements used to be easier. Just as solar became more affordable, the NEC brings in these requirements that really do NOT make sense for safety and price... For instance, module level shutdown. They just add cost and actually MORE unsafe wiring because of the addition of twice as many MC4 and PV module connector incompatibilities which I believe account for a lot of PV fires. It used to be that PV solar fires were very rare. From what I have heard, did you know that one person in particular on the NEC chair is responsible for the addition of module level shutdown ?

And some of the ways in which this stuff is tested do not make a lot of sense. PV DC Arc-Fault Circuit Protection for instance.. UL 1699B
The method of testing for this required certain baseline parameters of course and the chance of false tripping is enormous especially with the other signals in the system that can interfere with each other... One European solar inverter manufacturer that is sold in the US has built in AF protection... We tested it on large and REAL DC arcs and it did NOT shut off. BUT the way the standard had/has the test requirements allows arc fault detection sensitivity to be very low and still pass the test. Low sensitivity is great for reducing false AF trips. This was also verified by someone at that company who said that it only had to pass the UL test.

Anyway, I understand your concerns and agree partly regarding this but from a different perspective. There still needs to be accountability for having safe installations but I believe some of these requirements have gotten out of hand.

BTW, at OutBack Power when we were designing the FX and MX series of inverters and controllers, it took us just over a year from start to shipping by working 7 days a week. Same management as MidNite Solar also. Robin who also did the mechanical and a lot of the design requirements.
After OutBack and Magnum Energy had their products, it became a very different world and is not NEARLY as easy to do this stuff. There is also a serious lack of engineers and technicians in the US nowadays as well as competition like you mentioned. A lot of those long time manufacturers still have lots of money to spend on design as well as, probably very good and experienced engineers.

In the US, a lot of people do not want to work anymore either. Very hard to find good people but when we do, we really try to keep them around. Some companies based in the US and Canada etc (the west ?) are crashing too in this industry. I am afraid that in the end, China may end up winning.

BTW, these are just my opinions from being in the industry for 28 years and not necessarily speaking for those in high places ?

boB ?

 

[wild01]

Devil's advocate... SOME installations really need to be done correctly and not all DIYers can install to be really safe. Some oversight is needed. Otherwise, insurance companies would be their own judge and jury on even more fires caused by sloppy installation.



boB ?

I don't disagree with you that basic electrical safety is extremely important. And I really appreciate and respect your willingness to engage in this discussion. Something I've always respected about you. I just think that there is almost no pushback against the crazier new regulations, and I wonder if there is a correlation between midnite catering to some of them and the extreme slowdown of innovation on new product development.

Specific solar regs I see as useless:
1 Enclosing all wiring in listed boxes between system components. I fail to see how this is safer than running exposed insulated wires

2 module level rapid shutdown systems especially on ground mounted arrays this is just insane

3 Afci requirements

4 array ground dc bonding
This too me is not only counter intuitive it is actually dangerous in that if I accidently make contact with an array positive im almost guaranteed to be a path to ground especially with a high voltage array.

I just wonder if there is a direct link between the lack of innovation on the much harder real product development and easy money cranking out ul listed enclosures etc

 

[Hedges]

It was the same with the classic, they announced it years before it was available, and not to long after its release it was obsolete from a price vs features standpoint.

It may be part of the problem is buyers (whether retail consumers or industrial, etc.) are willing to buy products that promise great features, but haven't been wrung out thoroughly. "The bad drives out the good." The ability to push software updates, the M*cr*s*ft model seems like the start of it. One upon a time, quality products were developed. Sounds like Midnight is doing that, but customers are impatient (and those regulatory changes make a moving target, and obsolete good products.)

One European solar inverter manufacturer that is sold in the US has built in AF protection... We tested it on large and REAL DC arcs and it did NOT shut off.

Would that be the manufacturer about whom installers said the AFCI made it unusable due to false trips? Maybe they "fixed" that in the next iteration. From what I've seen of the arc-fault problem (in a switching power supply environment) looks like it requires FFT or possibly RF (AM) tuners synchronized to the inverter.

BTW, at OutBack Power when we were designing the FX and MX series of inverters and controllers, it took us just over a year from start to shipping by working 7 days a week.

I got to be part of a mass spectrum (RGA) development, the only real product design I did. From zero to sniffing gasses in the air in 12 months. Released product at 36 months (but I had to go back and fix some misbehavior after that.) Investors had wanted a released product at 18 months, oh well! You guys got to learn and develop new models a second, third, fourth time.

 

[wild01]

It may be part of the problem is buyers (whether retail consumers or industrial, etc.) are willing to buy products that promise great features, but haven't been wrung out thoroughly. "The bad drives out the good." The ability to push software updates, the M*cr*s*ft model seems like the start of it. One upon a time, quality products were developed. Sounds like Midnight is doing that, but customers are impatient (and those regulatory changes make a moving target, and obsolete good products.)



Would that be the manufacturer about whom installers said the AFCI made it unusable due to false trips? Maybe they "fixed" that in the next iteration. From what I've seen of the arc-fault problem (in a switching power supply environment) looks like it requires FFT or possibly RF (AM) tuners synchronized to the inverter.



I got to be part of a mass spectrum (RGA) development, the only real product design I did. From zero to sniffing gasses in the air in 12 months. Released product at 36 months (but I had to go back and fix some misbehavior after that.) Investors had wanted a released product at 18 months, oh well! You guys got to learn and develop new models a second, third, fourth time.

This could indeed be part of the problem, but if that is the case then the real problem becomes a PR one, you cannot start showing off a new product at trade shows and online and 5 years later still not have it marketable, especially if you are touting it as "available soon"


Another option would be to have the bs "code compliance" components easily removable for after inspection uninstall. I have a friend that loans out cafci breakers to other friends before the inspector shows up. Plug em in pass inspection, replace them with breakers that work. He jokes about turning it into a rental service.

 

[SpongeboB Sinewave]

I don't disagree with you that basic electrical safety is extremely important. And I really appreciate and respect your willingness to engage in this discussion. Something I've always respected about you. I just think that there is almost no pushback against the crazier new regulations, and I wonder if there is a correlation between midnite catering to some of them and the extreme slowdown of innovation on new product development.

Specific solar regs I see as useless:
1 Enclosing all wiring in listed boxes between system components. I fail to see how this is safer than running exposed insulated wires

Well, there must be SOME reason the NEC requires this and has for I don't know how long ?
May I suggest you find the NFPA NEC code for some time within the last 10 years or so and see what it requires ? Wires in conduit and a proper way of connecting those wires is usually required and the boxes they go in to must have the proper UL/ETL/CSA listings to the UL specification. UL I admit is basically the mafia in this regard. I won't go in to that here though

2 module level rapid shutdown systems especially on ground mounted arrays this is just insane

If you mount your PV array on a pole (and also the ground ?) then module level rapid shutdown is not required. Usually only rooftop mounted solar is required. That should be in the NEC for the last few years. You can download the NEC and even most recent if you do a search. It might take the right search parameters to find it. Or it can be bought of course as a printed version.

I agree that module level shutdown is really not much safer but it might actually cause more fires for firefighters to put out. There is no mention of how many volts one of those modules might have if a firefighter actually plunges a hatchet in to it. There are 100V modules now even. More cells might be coming ? I don't know

3 Afci requirements

DC arc fault protection is probably more useful than ground fault but both are required additions. Arc fault is nice but it is really hard to do so that it actually detects an arc and doesn't false trip. Hedges is correct that it can require FFTs but there are also other ways. It's really an audio DSP problem to detect arcs and and ignore the switching noise as well as module level shutdown if it is done by using a current-carrier or data over power (PV-DC) line for the modules to detect.

All this information on the PV lines when it just used to be DC current and voltage.

4 array ground dc bonding
This too me is not only counter intuitive it is actually dangerous in that if I accidently make contact with an array positive im almost guaranteed to be a path to ground especially with a high voltage array.

That is what ground fault is for. But I don't think you are supposed to ground the PV lines ? Again, this is in the NEC book.
Non-Isolated MPPT systems are grounded at the AC source or inverter if it is the main power provider.

All of the newer non-grounded PV systems are non-isolated and cannot be grounded anywhere on the PV side of course.

I just wonder if there is a direct link between the lack of innovation on the much harder real product development and easy money cranking out ul listed enclosures etc

Well, we (MidNite) engineering are doing almost 100% innovation these days. It is just incredibly difficult doing what we are trying to do now and we have a LOT of people (20+) working on these new products. Most of that is software and even it is hard to coordinate everything.
The hardware is incredibly hard to get right especially for what MidNite is trying to do. MidNite is NOT a rich company with unlimited funds kind of like Elon Musk's Space-X or Tesla Motors. I really wish we could hire a bit of talent that he has gotten ! I am very impressed !

But the new stuff is not going to be obsolete any time soon but you are absolutely correct that we blow the horn on products way too early. Talk is cheap I guess. The enclosures we make (BOS or Balance Of Systems) and charge controllers and SPDs do help us to keep working on the new products but I will say, buying parts for the new products really drain resources. And a lot of parts are still very hard to get. Chips and way more.
Very little design effort go into the BOS products that have been shipping for years but there are a couple that we have to work on but is mainly mechanical design and UL/ETL certification which is also NOT cheap or fast. Can't sell this stuff really, without NRTL certs.

Also, I like your idea of the high-leg configuration for inverters. First, have to start with a 3 phase inverter system and the rest can be done with a simple tapped transformer I believe. One of our building we had a few years ago had that high-leg system which is where I found it.
Not sure if a lot of consumers would need 3-phase power though to go with the 120/240 VAC ? I know that it is common (or was common) in Alaskan fishing and canning operations.

Back to work on B17 hardware... I have been working on a real doozie of a problem lately regarding AC input and what you would think is simple issues. Sometimes when you are getting down to the last little details, the hardest parts come out to haunt you. I'll get it though.
The B17 is already pretty awesome when you see how it works as well as the other products we are working on.

Older large 60Hz transformer inverters are easy compared to what we are doing but after OutBack, we were not able to do that kind of inverter for several years. I wish this HF stuff was easy, but it's far from it.

boB

 

[SpongeboB Sinewave]

It may be part of the problem is buyers (whether retail consumers or industrial, etc.) are willing to buy products that promise great features, but haven't been wrung out thoroughly. "The bad drives out the good." The ability to push software updates, the M*cr*s*ft model seems like the start of it. One upon a time, quality products were developed. Sounds like Midnight is doing that, but customers are impatient (and those regulatory changes make a moving target, and obsolete good products.)

There is a LOT of chasing moving targets especially NEC and UL specifications ! I hate that ! Part of doing business with mafia like organizations Well, some more than others

Would that be the manufacturer about whom installers said the AFCI made it unusable due to false trips? Maybe they "fixed" that in the next iteration. From what I've seen of the arc-fault problem (in a switching power supply environment) looks like it requires FFT or possibly RF (AM) tuners synchronized to the inverter.

Yes, FFT is the first thing that comes to mind of course. Actually if you think about it as an audio problem, the term "feedback eliminator" may come to mind. This is why I say that there are so many overlaps between the audio design world and the power engineering field like inverters. Signals and noise and all that. I am really glad that I spent so many years designing pro and consumer audio gear.

I got to be part of a mass spectrum (RGA) development, the only real product design I did. From zero to sniffing gasses in the air in 12 months. Released product at 36 months (but I had to go back and fix some misbehavior after that.) Investors had wanted a released product at 18 months, oh well! You guys got to learn and develop new models a second, third, fourth time.

Yep, investors at some companies will want to have the products blabbed about publically before it is done more than even WE do.
Look at all those failed vertical axis wind turbines and turbines on blimps etc that were going to change the world !

boB

 

[Hedges]

Also, I like your idea of the high-leg configuration for inverters. First, have to start with a 3 phase inverter system and the rest can be done with a simple tapped transformer I believe. One of our building we had a few years ago had that high-leg system which is where I found it.
Not sure if a lot of consumers would need 3-phase power though to go with the 120/240 VAC ? I know that it is common (or was common) in Alaskan fishing and canning operations.

3-phase is great, wonderful. Wish we had it available for all our motors.
But except for shop tools on the used market, inertia of installed consumer base drives demand.
Today, though, the consumers get it in a lot of products, inverter-drive refrigerators, mini-split AC, pool pumps (with added smarts to detect people trapped by inlets, etc.)

VFD cheaply done have diode/rectifier front-end, poor power factor and need larger breakers is the first issue. Inrush can't be good for the capacitors. My Sunny Island seems to be able to drive a moderate size VFD, but the waveform upsets GT PV Sunny Boy. I picked up some PFC modules from Lambda, but they require supporting circuitry before they can operate. Even basic PFC (of the boost converter kind) doesn't limit inrush, but a different circuit could. "Inrush" is a side project for me at work now. The transformer inrush issue is more fascinating that capacitor of SMPS.

You guys might be able to design good AC to AC VFD for load management. That would help off-grid systems and be a part of Smart Grid. (I believe load management is higher leverage and far more cost effective than storage.)

 

[wild01]

I already have 3p 240/415y in my shop, had to be its own standalone system, what appeals to me about high leg delta is that it an all in one solution. You get 240 delta and 120/240 split phase all out of the same system. I think with proper programming it could be done with 2 120v inverters and one 208v inverter.

I could already add a center tapped transformer to one leg of the 240/415 but being that 415 is already a bit of a cheat(it runs 480v equip ok, but it's really not quite what the equip was designed for) that's still less than ideal.

Being that most of the aio systems on the market are already capable of 3p stacking I would wager it wouldn't take that much to custom program them to stack their phase angles right for high leg delta.

It would also greatly reduce wiring cost because you have every available power option in 5 wires. Need 120v on this box? Np. Need 240? np. Need 3phase 240? Np.

 

[wild01]

I already have 3p 240/415y in my shop, had to be its own standalone system, what appeals to me about high leg delta is that it an all in one solution. You get 240 delta and 120/240 split phase all out of the same system. I think with proper programming it could be done with 2 120v inverters and one 208v inverter.

I could already add a center tapped transformer to one leg of the 240/415 but being that 415 is already a bit of a cheat(it runs 480v equip ok, but it's really not quite what the equip was designed for) that's still less than ideal.

Being that most of the aio systems on the market are already capable of 3p stacking I would wager it wouldn't take that much to custom program them to stack their phase angles right for high leg delta.

It would also greatly reduce wiring cost because you have every available power option in 5 wires. Need 120v on this box? Np. Need 240? np. Need 3phase 240? Np.

Another huge advantage of inverter based 3 phase generation is that phase imbalance is inconsequential. On rotary generated three phase much care must be taken with running single phase loads on one or 2 legs because the imbalance created inside the 3p generator can cause uneven loading and create excess heat within the generator itself. Because there is a separate inverter creating each leg of a stacked inverter based the 3p system as long as the total load put on each inverter doesn't overload it phase imbalance is a non issue.

 

[jamiko]

I've been seeing more of these AIO's that are similar to the Midnight Solar unit. I see Chins has one on Amazon now for $469 with free shipping. Same external appearance and the user manual seems identical. I don't know about warranty or customer service as I've never bought a Chins anything. It's good to see lower prices, but only time will tell if they're any good.

 

[realpinochet]

Hi, We are into the DIY series for two months now. All sold out, so we are trying to get a planeload of them flown in. The world wide shortage of parts and shipping is crazy! The next batch coming in will have ETL listing. We will have our own USA built E-Panels for them too. One new model is a 5000 watt all in one with a 500V MPPT. We have submitted our first engineering and firmware wish list of changes for the SRNE products to the manufacturer.

Some of these will take a fair amount of their engineering time, but we want our DIY product line to become more of a MidNite product. We do understand the shortfalls of other companies products. Heck, we also understand the shortfalls of our own! This all takes time and we are just getting started. Our tech support is now spending 25% of their time answering calls regarding the DIY series and customers asking us how to design their system. Our tech support doesn't really like giving out system design related information due to certain liabilities, but I have instructed them to do it anyway! We must make sure that we are not confusing the customer though, as that could then become a liability.

We also need to make sure you all get the help you need from us. That is a main difference between us and them. There are lots of inexpensive products coming out of China. Some are crap, but some are extremely good. SRNE is not crap as has been stated here. We know what will last and what won't. Don't be surprised to see longer warranty times on the DIY stuff in the future too. All this just takes time, but in the meantime, these DIY units are a great value. I would not hesitate to have one in my own house. Unfortunately I now live in a condo and do not have anything related to solar! I have a plan for that though. Like I have said in the past, if you can't get satisfaction from your dealer or our tech support, feel free to e-mail me directly. I get a few hundred e-mails a day, so what is a few more?
robin@midnitesolar.com

One year warranty, this says we don't believe in the product we are selling you. There's no way around this with some CEO double talk. You're asking us to take midnight seriously but you don't even take yourselves seriously. The cheaper units should come with a three year warranty, the more expensive ones you're fixing to release like the 10k split phase should come with five or more. Then you should allow the customer to pay a little more for extending the warranty. I was hoping the AIO units were at least designed from the ground up with your design / parts etc; I was looking for a better unit than the cheap chinese ones on the market now not the same thing was just a different name on the front cover. This seems all to harbor freight to me...they also have better warranty. May I ask why midnight is doing this? Just to make some money? I mean, you guys spent your lives developing a reputation and a brand name...is getting some side money on cheap Chinese inverters worth risking this? You guys should reconsider your approach and either offer a different product or not one at all in this context. Why not make a AIO rosie version made in china..at least that would be a different product and you could get relief on the whole tariff thing you spoke about. To be clear..I'd prefer we got back to making things here again even if it had a higher cost. I just want my stuff to last and for the company that made it to be responsible and stand behind it like we used to.

 

[Bobert]

Sure, having better software is important. And I have been sent numerous all in one prototypes that performed horribly because they did not have the same software as MPP or Growatt, even though they looked identical.

But that was not really my point. It is a cheap unit. The terminal blocks, the lack of mounting options for the bottom of the unit, the screen and overall build quality is awful. I expect MUCH better from midnite solar. I have always liked their products, and using a relabeled unit that everyone else is selling seems out of character. Especially a low quality product. You should buy it and look at it. It is not impressive at all.

I am ignorant on Deye. They look nice! But I have nothing to say in a comparison against Sol Ark. Are they both produced by one company?

I would like to point out that the MN3548DIY is physically different than the renogy in your video the switch and communication ports are in different locations and the MN3548DIY has a bottom mounting point. I distinctly remember being exited to watch your video on the renogy assuming that it was the same as my POW-LVM3.5K-48 and as soon as you layed it in it’s back I realized it was quite different. Since then I discovered that the POW-LVM3.5K-48 and the mn3548diy are identical in layout as well as the user’s manual.

 

[realpinochet]

I would like to point out that the MN3548DIY is physically different than the renogy in your video the switch and communication ports are in different locations and the MN3548DIY has a bottom mounting point. I distinctly remember being exited to watch your video on the renogy assuming that it was the same as my POW-LVM3.5K-48 and as soon as you layed it in it’s back I realized it was quite different. Since then I discovered that the POW-LVM3.5K-48 and the mn3548diy are identical in layout as well as the user’s manual.

It's literally the same SNRE inverter that everybody else is rebranding, the internals are the same. Not sure if you read the whole thread but Robin , the CEO, of the company even stated that it's a SNRE rebranded unit and he was not aware of any significant changes from what SRNE releases. They put their sticker on it and jacked up the price... simple as that. Lots of people copy mpp, take the new eg4 for example, but the eg4 seems to be different in it's circuitry for at the very least the mpp charger. The fans are different. The firmware is different. They offer a five year warranty. Midnight didn't do any of that...the only thing they did was raise the price.

 

[Will Prowse]

I would like to point out that the MN3548DIY is physically different than the renogy in your video the switch and communication ports are in different locations and the MN3548DIY has a bottom mounting point. I distinctly remember being exited to watch your video on the renogy assuming that it was the same as my POW-LVM3.5K-48 and as soon as you layed it in it’s back I realized it was quite different. Since then I discovered that the POW-LVM3.5K-48 and the mn3548diy are identical in layout as well as the user’s manual.

It's all the same. Same manufacturer. I get tons of these clones and email requests daily. They can have subtle differences but one company makes them all in China.

 

[Bobert]

It's all the same. Same manufacturer. I get tons of these clones and email requests daily. They can have subtle differences but one company makes them all in China.

I don’t doubt that the essential internals are all the same but physically: orientation of wires, locations of circuit breaker,, the on off switch, and mounting methods vary. That’s the point I wanted to make. The powmr I have added a second grounding lug so that there’s a physical place to put every wire that comes in or out for the ac side. This doesn’t affect function in any way but is sure convenient for installation.