NiFe Gassing

[mdagli1]

Hello, I've been experimenting with some NiFe cells from China on a solar powered shed and I have a questions about the electrolyte degradation.

Is it possible to stop the carbon build up by using pressurised recombiner vent caps like this one?
https://baterbattery.com/product/ba...combination-plug-recplug2-for-opzs-batteries/

 

[NIFE]

Hello, I've been experimenting with some NiFe cells from China on a solar powered shed and I have a questions about the electrolyte degradation.

Is it possible to stop the carbon build up by using pressurised recombiner vent caps like this one?
https://baterbattery.com/product/ba...combination-plug-recplug2-for-opzs-batteries/

gassing question - Solar Panels - Solar Panels Forum

Hello, do NiFe battery cells emit oxygen as well as hydrogen during charging, or is it just hydrogen only? They seem to gas the most at absorption and equalising. I've bought some recombination venting caps (http://www.en.bater.pl/recombination-plug/recombination-plug-recplug-3.html) and seem...

www.solarpaneltalk.com

Above is a link to this subject. Unfortunately "Mike 90250" passed away not long ago. He was one of the most knowledgeable and trusted persons when it came to NIFE information. The issue is not carbon buildup. Potassium carbonate is formed when carbon dioxide from the atmosphere is absorbed by the electrolyte. Some claim it is absorbed thru the plastic case of the cell as well as the fill cap area. Another argument is because they out-gas so much, the cells being at a positive pressure prevent or minimize the CO2 entrance thru the cap. In the end, CO2 does get into the electrolyte over time requiring periodic replacement.

 

[mdagli1]

Hello, thanks for the reply!

Damn... I noticed that there was this white powder forming around the top of the cells and couldn't work out where it was coming from. The stuff seems to get everywhere and has corroded the bottom of my metal box I've stored them in. I'm guessing the o-rings must be leaking somehow. The terminals are also corroding...

Is there anything I can do to improve the situation?

 

[NIFE]

The white stuff is mostly potassium carbonate. It looks bad but rinses away with water. Wear chemical gloves when handling, and most importantly don't get it in your eyes - really bad !! It has a rather high (alkaline) PH. Close up photos of the terminals and filler cap area would help. How old, what brand are these cells?

 

[mdagli1]

They are from Seawill in china. They are a few years old and don't really do much other than power a ventilation fan to the box they are in and charge off solar panels. This is just a hobby I've picked up for testing renewable stuff.
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Rechargeable-Nickel-iron-battery-for-sale_60173839439.html

The terminals are locally corroded black where I've affixed ring crimps for connection, I'm guessing it's the close proximity to copper is doing that.

I did some digging on the internet again and apparently rubber gaskets are air permeable, especially to carbon dioxide. PTFE seams to be an ideal replacement: https://www.marcorubber.com/o-ring-permeation.htm
https://static.thermoscientific.com/images/D20826~.pdf

I can swap out the O-rings around the terminals and my polypropylene cap adapter but inside recombiner plugs has a pressure relief valve which is inaccessible from the outside. No idea what material this is depending on where the recombiner comes from. (I've found 4 different manufacturers from the internet)

https://www.flowsystemsusa.com/battery-recombination-caps.html
https://baterbattery.com/product/ba...combination-plug-recplug2-for-opzs-batteries/
https://hydrocapcorp.com/
https://www.hoppecke.com/en/product/grid-aquagen-pro/
https://www.exponentialpower.com/pr...c/bi-directional-recombination-vent-caps.html

 

[NIFE]

Is the terminal stud smooth or threaded where the seal contacts it?

 

[mdagli1]

There are 2 orings per terminal. One is inside the cell against a smooth surface with a shoulder, the other is threaded and accessable from the top. There is a spacer plate inside between the 2. They both get squashed by a single nut from the top.

The design of these cells are not brilliant as they came from China but at this point, they are the only supplier that I'm aware of... (The Polypropylene case and rubber orings leak carbon dioxide into the cell, the vent cap that comes with them sometimes flood, the stainless steel terminal welds are corroded black inside and not bolted together with nickel plated metal. The plastic weld that binds the cell together seems OK though.)

 

[NIFE]

There are 2 orings per terminal. One is inside the cell against a smooth surface with a shoulder, the other is threaded and accessable from the top. There is a spacer plate inside between the 2. They both get squashed by a single nut from the top.

The design of these cells are not brilliant as they came from China but at this point, they are the only supplier that I'm aware of... (The Polypropylene case and rubber orings leak carbon dioxide into the cell, the vent cap that comes with them sometimes flood, the stainless steel terminal welds are corroded black inside and not bolted together with nickel plated metal. The plastic weld that binds the cell together seems OK though.)

Nice cells and photos! I think the slight pressure in the cell is forcing gas between the center hole of the washer and the threads of the terminal.
If these cells were mine, I would first try to replace the washer(s) under the stainless flat washer with a neoprene flat washer that had a center hole that is smaller than the stud. Thread it on like a nut. The undersized hole will force the material into the grooves of the treads forming a better seal.
If that does not work, I have sealed Edison nickel iron terminals with slow set grey JB Weld if it is available where you are. The method depends on how your cell is constructed. Are your cell plates touching the bottom of the cell case or are they suspended off the bottom held up by the terminal studs and nuts? Attached is a chemical chart for Potassium Hydroxide 50% solution. Yours is around 21% but I think the chart still applies. For the fill cap, the only thing that keeps them working is a periodic rinse with distilled water. I have also used a tapered neoprene stopper with a 4mm hole in the center. Insert a 4mm Teflon tube and vent to outdoors. If you use a rubber stopper, try to determine if it is low sulfur rubber. Edison had trouble with poor performance with the early versions of his cells and traced it back to the sulfur content of the internal cell spacers and insulators.

 

[mdagli1]

To summarise my experience with the technology so far here it is:

• The cell walls need to be made of ABS as polypropylene is gas permeable to carbon dioxide.
• The electrodes need to be assembled with nickel plated metals to stop corrosion.
• The rubber gaskets deteriorate and leak gas so need to be made of PTFE ideally.
• Use catalytic gas recombiners to convert the explosive hydrogen/oxygen gas back into water.
• Reduce charging voltage to reduce gassing at price of capacity.
• Do not equalise when using recombiners as the high gassing will overwhelm them.
• Do not over discharge as this will reverse the polarity of a lower capacity cell permanently damaging them.
• Add only distilled water as anything else contaminate the electrolyte.
• The electrolyte is made up of about 30% KOH and 1.5% LiOH, no idea if there are alternative chemistry to try.
• The electrolyte mixture deteriorates over time when exposed to carbon dioxide.
• The electrolyte chemistry is difficult to ship wet as are classified as hazardous.
• There are no cell balancers or monitors that I'm aware of which go down to 1.4V
• The cell separators need to be made of polypropylene to prevent sulphur contaminating the electrolyte.

Hopefully, someone can make use of my experience with the technology and make the situation better for others that are thinking about getting involved with the Edison cells.

 

[danielfp248]

You can also paint the outer plastic with an oil based paint that is impervious to CO2. This can allow you to prevent CO2 flowing into the cell through the housing without having to change the entire body.

 

[saggys]

Three of the translucent cell containers of my 13 year old cells developed cracks. I tried to repair them with a plastic adhesive and they cracked worse. The adhesive may have been incompatible.
The bank I picked up 3 years ago (10 years old at the time) had a layer of polypropylene beads floating on the electrolyte. This is supposed to limit the exposure to atmosphere.
I used FLA batteries for 7 years prior and must say I prefer the NIFE over FLA, no concern about SOC, no sulfating. 1.57 vdc per cell seemed to be a sweet spot for charging, adequate capacity, water consumption manageable.
I have since moved on to LiFeP04 as I have been unable to locate replacement cell containers for the NIFE.

 

[DPC]

The bank I picked up 3 years ago (10 years old at the time) had a layer of polypropylene beads floating on the electrolyte. This is supposed to limit the exposure to atmosphere.

I've never used those batteries but I used to get NiCad cells of similar design and chemistry that had cell oil on the surface floating there to prevent CO2 from reacting with the KOH in the cells..

Our cells fail because the monthly inspection says to check the SG of the electrolyte.
It never changes but its in the PM and I know its harming the batteries because the oil is wicked off the top of the cells by the rubber hose n the Hydrometer and people like to swish and slurp all kind of air in there to mix things good.

No one listens to me so the PM continues to be done that way.
I am not given the PM to do anymore because I write on it " this test is stupid pointless and damaging our station batteries and I refuse to test the SG " and bosses and planners don't like to be told stuff like that.
So I just water them do a by monthly equalization and walk away.
No one does an equalization but me its not on the PM, but this is what mostly cracks off the water that needs to be replenished .
I don't have any recombination caps like you guys are talking about.
My batteries are station batteries only used as back up in emergency to reset breakers.
They should last a lot longer but they are replaced about 5-10 years it seems.

Our batteries come from a supplier in India.
Maybe they have Iron batteries too.
It might be worth investigation.

Yup another supplier.

Nickel Iron Batteries

Kushal Technologies - Offering Amara Raja Nickel Iron Batteries, For UPS, 2v & 12v at Rs 2000/unit in Pune, Maharashtra. Also find Nickel Iron Batteries price list | ID: 22660981762

www.indiamart.com

Indian NiCad station batteries have been hit and miss.
Some sets have failed to perform on commissioning and required special charge procedures I do not understand ,
SAFT batteries never gave us trouble in the old days.

 

[ponzatron]

To summarise my experience with the technology so far here it is:

• The cell walls need to be made of ABS as polypropylene is gas permeable to carbon dioxide.
• The electrodes need to be assembled with nickel plated metals to stop corrosion.
• The rubber gaskets deteriorate and leak gas so need to be made of PTFE ideally.
• Use catalytic gas recombiners to convert the explosive hydrogen/oxygen gas back into water.
• Reduce charging voltage to reduce gassing at price of capacity.
• Do not equalise when using recombiners as the high gassing will overwhelm them.
• Do not over discharge as this will reverse the polarity of a lower capacity cell permanently damaging them.
• Add only distilled water as anything else contaminate the electrolyte.
• The electrolyte is made up of about 30% KOH and 1.5% LiOH, no idea if there are alternative chemistry to try.
• The electrolyte mixture deteriorates over time when exposed to carbon dioxide.
• The electrolyte chemistry is difficult to ship wet as are classified as hazardous.
• There are no cell balancers or monitors that I'm aware of which go down to 1.4V
• The cell separators need to be made of polypropylene to prevent sulphur contaminating the electrolyte.

Hopefully, someone can make use of my experience with the technology and make the situation better for others that are thinking about getting involved with the Edison cells.

I work at a battery company and we have successfully created maintenance-free Nickel Iron batteries. These cells are lighter than lead acid, hold more energy, and can be used at 100% DOD without damage. They charge extremely fast and can discharge at a higher rate than lead acid. The cost is about the same. Now that we've developed the product, were trying to figure out a size that we can produce to use as a building block in different industries. For instance a size that can be scaled up to work with solar energy storage, ups, and forklift batteries. Your suggestions are very helpful. Do you have any idea where I can source some abs cases like this to experiment with?

 

[DPC]

I work at a battery company and we have successfully created maintenance-free Nickel Iron batteries. These cells are lighter than lead acid, hold more energy, and can be used at 100% DOD without damage. They charge extremely fast and can discharge at a higher rate than lead acid. The cost is about the same. Now that we've developed the product, were trying to figure out a size that we can produce to use as a building block in different industries. For instance a size that can be scaled up to work with solar energy storage, ups, and forklift batteries. Your suggestions are very helpful. Do you have any idea where I can source some abs cases like this to experiment with?

China....
Call a Chinese station battery supplier and ask to buy cases because you " remanufacture " batteries.
They don't need to know what you are doing.

Second.
Make you batteries exactly the same size and shape as SAFT or other brands of nickel cadmium batteries.
Sell them as similar to those products.
Design then to have similar charging and discharging properties as NiCad without the Cadmium of course, so they are a drop in replacement for existing infrastructure.

Third
How can you make a battery out of nickel for the same price as Lead? ( Lead 2 dollars a pound Nickel 7 dollars )
What sort of nickel product are you using?
201 powder, electrolytic rounds?????
I don't know how that is economically possible

 

[ponzatron]

China....
Call a Chinese station battery supplier and ask to buy cases because you " remanufacture " batteries.
They don't need to know what you are doing.

Second.
Make you batteries exactly the same size and shape as SAFT or other brands of nickel cadmium batteries.
Sell them as similar to those products.
Design then to have similar charging and discharging properties as NiCad without the Cadmium of course, so they are a drop in replacement for existing infrastructure.

Third
How can you make a battery out of nickel for the same price as Lead? ( Lead 2 dollars a pound Nickel 7 dollars )
What sort of nickel product are you using?
201 powder, electrolytic rounds?????
I don't know how that is economically possible

Why do you recommend producing at the same size as nickel cadmium batteries? I hadn't considered this yet.

They are more energy dense than lead acid batteries. Right now the price per kwh is higher but we hope to match it in the distant future.

 

[DPC]

Make a bolt in replacement that looks like a NiCad battery and exceeds it performance, but does not require a new charger..
This means that all existing NiCad become obsolete and can be banned as it is already for most consumer applications.
You will own the station battery market

You have not told me how you make an nickle iron battery cheaper than a lead acid one.
I call bullshit....

I work for mother INCO. ( now VALE.... the great Satan of mining )
Your speaking to someone that knows the nickle industry and those types of alloys and processes involved in batteries
We bought Rayovac so we could corner the market in NiCad technology and lost our bloody shirts...
Impress me with your story now please...

 

[ponzatron]

Make a bolt in replacement that looks like a NiCad battery and exceeds it performance, but does not require a new charger..
This means that all existing NiCad become obsolete and can be banned as it is already for most consumer applications.
You will own the station battery market

You have not told me how you make an nickle iron battery cheaper than a lead acid one.
I call bullshit....

I work for mother INCO. ( now VALE.... the great Satan of mining )
Your speaking to someone that knows the nickle industry and those types of alloys and processes involved in batteries
We bought Rayovac so we could corner the market in NiCad technology and lost our bloody shirts...
Impress me with your story now please...

I never said they were cheaper. I said that in the future we hope to optimize costs to be about the same price. This is not going to happen overnight and is a long term goal.

Imagine a lead acid 12-125-15 875Ah 24V forklift battery. After 80% DOD and 70% efficiency, this battery only delivers around 490 Ah of usable capacity. In order for us to deliver the same amount of usable capacity, we would need to make a battery with less total Ah capacity because we can deliver 90% efficiency at 100% DOD. We also have the advantage of needing less material to produce a battery with equal capacity, because our batteries have a higher energy density than lead acid. These factors combine to create a product cost that we hope equals that of lead acid in the long term. Our batteries also will charge faster and have superior cycle life, value added which we hope speaks for itself.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to go into to specifics on how they are manufactured. And I'm not trying to argue, just trying to do a little market research. About NiCad batteries though, I appreciate the suggestion. How common are NiCad batteries in the stationary storage market? It was my understanding that in this market li-ion and lead acid had the greatest market share.

 

[mdagli1]

• The electrolyte is made up of about 30% KOH and 1.5% LiOH, no idea if there are alternative chemistry to try.

Hello, I came across this patent for an alternative electrolyte mixture:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140220432A1/en

It uses 20% sodium hydroxide (NaOH) and 1% Sodium sulphide (Na2S) instead of 30% Potassium Hydroxide (KoH)
1.5% of Lithium Hydroxide remains the same.

From the looks of it: NaOH self discharge rate has been reduced compared to KoH
What probably the most important bit is that the Na2S makes the chemistry work with the iron.

However, all hydroxide solutions react with the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere still making flooded cells an issue...

 

[mdagli1]

• There are no cell balancers or monitors that I'm aware of which go down to 1.4V

Hello all again. I developed a cell monitor that you can't buy off the shelf: https://everycircuit.com/circuit/6258628214128640
It's incomplete and pretty basic but the main bits are there. https://everycircuit.com/list/keywords/@mdagli1

For those that are into electronics:

It starts off with a potential divider to get the total voltage down bellow 12V for a rail to rail op amp to accept. https://everycircuit.com/circuit/5933051976351744
It then goes through a unity gain buffer and differentiator op amps to get individual cell voltage. https://everycircuit.com/circuit/6655045776703488
It finishes off by turning on an LED if voltage drops bellow a set threshold. https://everycircuit.com/circuit/6404070813990912
I also added a passive resister to a relay for an individual cell when the voltage goes too high. You can replace the passive resister with a Zener shunt regulator. https://everycircuit.com/circuit/6099194062045184

I hope you like it!