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OFF GRID PERMIT?

tomy2

escape artist
Joined
Mar 12, 2022
Messages
431
Location
paso robles ca.
I want to install a 10 panel on the roof, no grid tie system on my house. But I don't want to get a permit, or rather I don't want an inspector poking around my property. It occurred to me that the panels will show up on google earth and the county might be watching. Has anyone heard of this happening or heard of any other pitfalls resulting from not getting s permit?
 
I'm in US and off-grid. One pitfall for my jurisdiction as I understand it... If you sell your house there may be questions if the purchaser discovers there was no permit during the purchaser inspection process. This could result in delay, retro permitting, ...

Because of this, I did my own permit / home-owner install for the initial system and they still required an electrician (cost me $4000) but after than I used the 'home-owner may expand circuits on their own' rule along with what the electrician taught me when he did the initial work. So I know I'm to code.

So.. maybe start with a small system and pay the piper, but then expand on your own to reduce the $ you pay the piper?
 
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I think the county is more likely to use satellite photos looking for additions that people aren't paying property taxes on.

Rooftop PV, I think the main issues would be fire safety and as OffGrid says upon resale. 10 panels worth some $1k to $5k, you would just remove at that point.

Other mounting configurations, like as an awning to provide sun shade, might be attractive.

Are you sure about the economic value the system you're considering? PV is much cheaper than utility, but batteries cost more than utility. It is difficult to make an isolated PV system which costs less than just consuming grid power. One which uses up to 100% of PV and then draws from grid, with little or now battery, is more likely to save money.
 
Unlikely a satellite picture will be used to hunt down renegade PV installs.

More likely is a utility worker that has been instructed to record address of residences with PV installs also connected to their grid so they can be verified as getting proper approvals.

If you apply for new homeowners insurance, many insurance inspectors will look up copies of every county permit ever issued for your property.
 
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I know the code enforcement office for my city and can tell you for certain the satellite photo's are only used if they have a reason to look. That reason is almost always complaint driven (i.e. some nosy neighbor calls in). Then it has to be worth their time. And that would only be for something big, like you added a garage or something. You see, they have to bring the county or city lawyer on-line to do a code enforcement inspection. Along with the inspector, etc. etc. So unless there is a egregious problem, its simply not work their time :)
 
California and some other states exempt solar property improvements from property taxation. If you're in one of those states the county tax people shouldn't be interested in your installation.
 
I'm not in city limits. My county specifically told me there is no permit required for solar and they don't factor solar into taxes. So, that's that.
 
They are watching you ? and always looking for ways to get your money. Do you want to pay for permits or pay penalties and permits?

Stay off your roof or you may be required to do a structural permit with engineering costs.

Only your local authorities can answer your questions properly. I have heard some authorities say "No grid tie, No roof mount = No permit".
If you live in California they will tax the sun you use. ?
 
My experience, building and code enforcement will tell exactly what you need to be legal. It would likely be the roof mount that needs permits.
Pitfalls? You may have to remove everything.
 
A new natural gas line was installed in this house by one of the folks issuing permits around here. I'm sure some of them know about the stuff they are dealing with.

@Brett V Not to be too contradictory but that gentleman who plumbed this house was not elected.
 
California and some other states exempt solar property improvements from property taxation. If you're in one of those states the county tax people shouldn't be interested in your installation.
You sound like you might know the answer to my next question. In California, if you get a permit for solar, can an inspector still use the oppurtunity to find other non permitted structures on your property. I know that in some bills that have passed lately, like is it SB9 the single family lot split bill, they have included language that prevents inspectors from doing anything beyond the scope of the specific permit. I know the solar industry has been trying to get this language attached to solar permitting but I have not heard if it has happened yet. Oh and thank you all for your feedback and for not getting crazy political about it!
 
They are watching you ? and always looking for ways to get your money. Do you want to pay for permits or pay penalties and permits?

Stay off your roof or you may be required to do a structural permit with engineering costs.

Only your local authorities can answer your questions properly. I have heard some authorities say "No grid tie, No roof mount = No permit".
If you live in California they will tax the sun you use. ?
yes California is expensive in many ways. However, I do like that my house appreciates 50 to 100k almost every year, good news for my heirs anyway. I have only had experience with 200 watt panels, and they are light. If you are talking about 350w or bigger panels would the weight per foot be significantly greater?
 
I have only had experience with 200 watt panels, and they are light. If you are talking about 350w or bigger panels would the weight per foot be significantly greater?
As far as engineering is concerned the biggest design issue is uplift force from wind. I have done two self installs in California in different jurisdictions. In both cases the racking company's online design tools provided the engineering stamp that worked with those building departments. The weight of the panels is only a consideration for the person(s) getting them up on the roof and moving them around.
 
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do like that my house appreciates 50 to 100k almost every year, good news for my heirs anyway
Uggh. Appreciation vs inflation? More dollars isn’t always more value
I don't want to get a permit, or rather I don't want an inspector poking around my property
I respect that. Ground mount, do stuff right and pretty, and ignore Barney.

Grid tie may require a licensed electchicken who may need to file a work notice in order to proceed. Best to do gridtie properly
 
As long as the rate of appreciation is greater than the rate of inflation there is a real value gain. Most indexes of inflation include a housing component.
Ya
I’m just getting cynical the last three or four years. CPI and employment figures are ‘indexes’ but often obscure “effective prices” and wage value.
Like locally to my region- lower wage sectors of citizenry that get added employment are often ~$12-$14/hour, but rents are $1200-1400 currently. So 2/3+ of their take home disappears from their economic mobility so they receive housing assistance to live. But their standard of living isn’t improved in mobility and the landlord is receiving the actual benefit not the named recipient. These government-enabled high rents affect single-family home prices making that sector always gaining just-out-of-reach positioning for the low-wage sector.
I’m not anti-capitalism but I’m sick of government interference that creates a system of dependency while subsidizing landlords, yet can’t seem to find the money to create an environment of economic mobility for the lower wage constituencies.
Granted it’s a bit more complicated than that but as a former rental manager I view that many good people are trapped by these policies and quite a large number of bad actors are rewarded for idleness and criminal profiteering in their leisure.

The government doesn’t need to oversee every aspect of our lives. For an off-grid system just do it. If the county wants non-reflective coatings do it. I just wouldn’t want to deal with a permit authority
 
However, I do like that my house appreciates 50 to 100k almost every year, good news for my heirs anyway.

Maybe not since Prop 13 got eviscerated. On inheritance, it will be reappraised for tax purposes at current market value.
There is an exception regarding use as principle residence. By you? By your heirs? Maybe if you lived there and they move in to live there, will get to keep your low tax basis.

In California, if you get a permit for solar, can an inspector still use the oppurtunity to find other non permitted structures on your property.

"Can" and "Will" may be different.
When I was applying for a permit and mentioned a neighbor's project, the intake person (not an inspector), seemed concerned, like he didn't want to be told of something that might be unallowed and unpermitted. But later after I was able to pull up the county documents on that project, he noted from the type of permit that an (expensive) hearing had been performed in order to get it authorized.
Of course, if an inspector wanted to be a d*ck, having visited your property he could call in an anonymous complaint.

I have only had experience with 200 watt panels, and they are light. If you are talking about 350w or bigger panels would the weight per foot be significantly greater?

They vary by brand and model. Some have thin glass. My SunPower 327W aren't too bad, 41 lbs. The 435W panels are 56 lbs. But some other brands are 65 lbs.
Just size gets to be an issue. I climb a ladder solo and insert them from underneath a ground mount.

As far as engineering is concerned the biggest design issue is uplift force from wind. I have done two self installs in California in different jurisdictions ... The weight of the panels is only a consideration of the person(s) getting them on the roof.

Downforce is compression with a large contact area, but uplift might be resisted by just four 6mm bolts, at least that's what my bottom clips use. Top clamps use more like 3/8" bolts (spanning two panels, not just holding one).

In my (San Jose) jurisdiction, if roof mount array structure weighs no more than 40 lbs per mounting foot (and height < 18") no structure permit is required. Besides loading on that point, could also be a proxy for area and uplift force. I imagine a slap-on job has lag screws through 1/2" CDX plywood. Or is that OSB cr*p that is used these days? Putting lag screws into rafters would be far stronger, but have fun locating them from outside unless you marked location while re-roofing.


I respect that. Ground mount, do stuff right and pretty, and ignore Barney.

Grid tie may require a licensed electchicken who may need to file a work notice in order to proceed. Best to do gridtie properly

We are allowed a particular size non-permit structure. I designed my ground mounts as small sheds (sans walls) with a huge roof overhang.
City reviewed the drawings and stamped them "No permit required". Cost me more for the permit not to have a permit, than what they charged for the electrical permit.

Grid tie backfeeding utility requires utility permission to operate, which requires signed off city permit. So make the hookup with something minimal for an array? For us, rooftop PV is expedited and on-line now, ground-mount would require more. Do something, make it legal, wait for the inspector's (and PG&E guy's) tail lights to disappear from view. DIY hookup without your "Electric Chicken" is fine.

But if not exporting, bootleg install using listed equipment to be safe should be sufficient. It is "zero export" systems where I would have the most concern. Depending on how fast its algorithm ramps up and down, could alternate between export and import to keep average zero. NEM-3.0 proposals included measuring import vs. export on a second by second basis. Perhaps for regular (non net-metering) customers, the meter would observe and report what you're doing. Other concern is non UL listed equipment. If an inverter backfeeds to the house but uses CT to not backfeed into the grid, and does not implement UL-1741 anti-islanding, my concern would be it might backfeed enough to electrocute a lineman. So only listed equipment.



I’m just getting cynical the last three or four years. CPI and employment figures are ‘indexes’ but often obscure “effective prices” and wage value.

Refer to "Shadow Stats"


 
I'm off-grid. One thing I'm doing is powering up to 80% of my home rather than 100% (0 grid). This leaves a modest but ongoing, normal power bill making my address 'blend in'. At the same time, if grid is lost I can live 'just fine' at the 80% level - will just do without the hot tub.

I bring this up because I had a long career as a software development engineer who has worked at various times on algorithms to sift data and I can imagine a Power company setting alerts on 0 grid addresses... to investigate? charge extra fees? check permits?

Paranoid maybe!, but if not today maybe in the coming years....
 
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