diy solar

diy solar

Off-grid power replacing the grid in rural/remote Australia

How would you know about their reliability?

As to cost, I guess that depends on whether you can build an off-grid system to be better than Horizon's tariffs:

This is the law:


The current rates for Horizon Power are (General Usage is Australian cents per kWh, Supply charge is cents per day):

View attachment 142788
Aussie 30.06 c/kWh ~= US 20.4 c/kWh

So yeah, if you can reliably supply your own power in remote / rural WA for $A0.30c/kWh and A$1.07/day, knock yourself out. No one is stopping you.
This is clearly the thin edge of the wedge.

The next step is no certificate of occupancy without an energy company contract.

That is my main concern, and there are so few people that understand the issue that it will be legislated unopposed.

Revisit this thread in ten years time to see I’m being paranoid or not ?

As for reliability- you were saying they would have the same delivery standards as grid supply customers. The grid has consistently proven to be less reliable than any well designed standalone system.
 
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This is clearly the thin edge of the wedge.

The next step is no certificate of occupancy without an energy company contract.
This is Australia. There are already thousands of rural and remote properties not connected to the grid. No one is being refused certificate of occupancy. Unless you have actual evidence of such actions taken by State govts in Australia, then it's just conspiracy nonsense.

As for reliability- you were saying they would have the same delivery standards as grid supply customers. The grid has consistently proven to be less reliable than any well designed standalone system.
Evidence please.

The grid reliability standards in Australia are very high.

The grid is required to meet 99.998% of forecast customer demand. There are penalties and recompense for customers if the grid operators do not. To be fair I don't know what reliability standard the WA grid applies, but it will be similar to the those applying in the NEM.


This is generation reliability of course, not distribution/transmission. That's a different matter and of course any transmission system will have downtime - the vast majority of outages are due to such things. Like last year when a driver of a 4WD ran their vehicle into a local power pole and the electricity company had to shut off power to the local town for safety in order to enable the driver to be safely rescued and repairs to power pole and lines conducted.
 
In the USA, once connected to (most every) grid, you don't usually get to EVER disconnect; you could say I'm not using any power again, but they would still hit you with the monthly connection and other fees not related to actual power consumed. So, once hooked up, always hooked up. Monthly bill has to be paid.

If AU grids have no other add-on fees, then you do indeed have less headaches than we have here ... although, the daily connect fee still sounds like a fee to me. If you can truly disconnect, there's still some hope for you ...

Grid reliability for us is more "is there an outage today, and how long will it be" ... it isn't how good the power is when it is flowing, it is how often and how long is the outage. Brownouts, blackouts, weather events, car crashes, etc. All leads to outages of some kind ... as there are multiple grid suppliers, every one of them are different wrt outages, even though all held to same standards of power quality. There will be outages, so a prime reason to go off-grid, in some cases, even in the city. Once grid-connected, you give up all control over your power destiny.

Rural folks, with less population, are the last to be dealt with in an outage.

I can't imagine that there aren't grid outages at any other grid supplier in the world. Outages happen. Power fluctuates. Money is being chased. Somewhere at the end of all that is a person/family ... way down at the bottom.

For these, and many other reasons, off-grid, self-sustaining, independent power supply ... it's the way of the future. You can now generate power without any grid involvement, and there are no more "reliability" problems. People have to tell me that there is an outage in the local grid ... I never notice. This self-reliability is priceless to me, and is worth all the hidden costs of hooking up to the grid. It's never just some "cents/kwh", it is contracts, fees, permanent grid connection, rules/regulations, etc.

Most folks will never read their contract to get power from the grid, but certain parts are downright scary. Are you and/or your neighbor throwing out THD? You don't want to let us come into your house and find the problem? Then we have the right to disconnect both of you until the issue is resolved. This is boilerplate in every power contract, so yes they could come into your house ... assuming of course that you want the power to keep flowing. I've read many grid contracts, chasing down THD issues ... many other parts are problematic as well.

Having a grid do that "off-grid" piece for you is a step backward, unless one just desires to have someone else do it and foot the initial costs, and you want to just "pay a monthly bill". We did and do have companies that will do grid-tied solar installs onto your home, and you just rent the installation from then on. Not sure how many still think that is a good deal today ...

I'm truly watching this AU development, to see what aspects of it turn out to be good, and what develops into issues ... it does get people off-grid with respect to outages from the grid, just still grid-tied with respect to billing/maintenance/etc.

If it's your own equipment, you are in charge ... if it's their equipment, I'm not sure what's changed in the grid/customer equation. We are still at the bottom. Interesting development, wrt to grids "offering" to do the off-grid piece ...
 
So, it looks like Western Power (WP) contracted with Hybrid Systems (HS) to put together an SPS for the remote/rural sites that WP identifies as eligible for "we can save money on distribution costs, reduce bushfire, etc." (marketing, PR terms).

When you read the HS website, it's a bunch of panels, inverter/mppt/battery-bank, and a diesel gen, all wrapped up in a nice package that takes 40 sq metres. HS builds/installs it, WP manages it after that (and bills the customer for it). It is indeed a turnkey system, and over here in the states, we have a bit of background/history with utility-managed turnkey projects.

It's almost always a great deal, just not always a great deal for the end-customer. Over here, the costs will be amortized, and you would know that that the utility grid & its stockholders, and the project suppliers, won't come out on the short end of that.

I also have an SPS that I put in myself (all the same components of panels, inverter, battery-bank, gen, etc.), for a fraction of the startup costs to get grid-connected, and most likely, for a fraction of the cost of a grid-managed SPS supplier. I did this 10 years ago; I'm a drop in the bucket of such folks. I am the SPS provider & maintainer, and the system is now under my control ... no contracts/service/headaches of any kind.

On this journey, I broke free from the grid system ... numerous ties to many controls were cut, and I survived and thrived.

So I think there are two points here, and anyone can go either way with it ...

- SPS can be done by yourself ... many in my area have done it, sold their homes with the system in place, and so on. It just works. This forum makes it easy.

- SPS can be done by the grid/supplier for you ... not as great a history there, but who knows how long it will take the grids to get on top of it. My gut is that only the grid/stockholders will come out on top, and they've squashed a portion of the independent folks (always a potential thorn in their side).

In the end, not sure what's new here, other than you can lose some unsightly power poles & such ... you are still grid-connected, contracted, managed, etc., or you are not.

Indeed a development to watch, for many reasons ...
 
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Grid reliability for us is more "is there an outage today, and how long will it be"
Sure but that per se is not a reason to be off-grid. It's just a reason to have backup power.

Or look at it the other way round. If you have an off-grid system which supplies most of your energy needs, the grid makes for an excellent (all but unlimited) backup generator for when your system is a bit stretched.

You can now generate power without any grid involvement, and there are no more "reliability" problems.
Sure but no off-grid system is perfectly reliable either. They will fail / require downtime, maintenance and upkeep. Not everyone has or will maintain the technical skills, equipment and knowledge to be managing such things. You will need supplies, replacements, tools etc. Utilities keep these things on hand at the ready because maintenance is BAU for them.

I'm truly watching this AU development, to see what aspects of it turn out to be good, and what develops into issues ... it does get people off-grid with respect to outages from the grid, just still grid-tied with respect to billing/maintenance/etc.
Electricity supply, water supply, waste water treatment, gas supply. Not everyone can live on a rural block with the space to do all this.

And not everyone wants or needs to do everything themselves when there are organisations and businesses who do it better and more efficiently.

Do you build your own car? Grow the timber to be used to build your home? Supply every item of food you eat? Do you build your own internet servers and communications infrastructure to connect to the WWW or phone system? Electricity supply is just another service, and not everyone wants to look after an energy supply system when they have better things to do with their time.

In the end what you are I are expressing are really just cultural differences. Each society has a different blend of the values of independence and interdependence. It's a spectrum and thinking being on one part of the spectrum is better than another is really no more than an exercise in self justification.

As a society we just happen to think being interconnected is somewhat more valuable than a culture which leans more heavily towards every man or woman for themselves. Others think differently.

It's almost always a great deal, just not always a great deal for the end-customer.
Again, *by law*, people serviced by these utility managed off-grid supply systems pay the same for their electricity service and supply as everyone else on the grid. Making out as if they are going to pay more is completely misleading.

Frankly I want our utilities to be able to reliably delivery power for lower cost as that benefits everyone. In Australia, again by law, the (regional monopoly) power distribution companies have their income regulated. The price they can charge is set.

If in remote WA you can reliably supply sufficient power 24/7 for the prices they are charging, then knock yourself out. No one is stopping you.
 
There are many readily available off-grid power solutions, currently enjoyed by thousands or Australians.

Why do you think power providers want to join the ranks of standalone power systems?

If you think it is to provide a subsidised service to remote people you are in for disappointment.

Without the ability to feed to the grid it’s not possible for a standalone system to have the same pricing structure as a grid connect.

My personal DIY off-grid system has over the course of the last decade provided cheaper and more reliable power than the grid system in my rental property.

It is getting easier and cheaper to generate your own energy - it’s obvious that energy companies need to act early enough that typical residential users don’t realise they don’t need the grid.

Supplying standalone systems (at expensive rates) won’t protect their business. Mandating their use will.

You can call it a conspiracy theory, but logically if I was in control of an energy company I would be trying to eliminate mass movement to independent power generation.

On a personal level it doesn’t bother me, my next power generator doesn’t fall under the scope of any current legislation (much like my current one didn’t when I built it). It’s just a shame that as the pyramid of capitalism gets ever more logarithmic in the shape of its sides people get more apathetic to their fate.
 
There are many readily available off-grid power solutions, currently enjoyed by thousands or Australians.
If being off-grid is so darn good, then why haven't millions of Australians gone that way? It's not like they are afraid of generating energy - 1/3rd of all homes have a solar PV system. But the overwhelming majority remain on-grid.

Perhaps it's not quite so easy, cheap and convenient as is made out.
 
If being off-grid is so darn good, then why haven't millions of Australians gone that way? It's not like they are afraid of generating energy - 1/3rd of all homes have a solar PV system. But the overwhelming majority remain on-grid.

Perhaps it's not quite so easy, cheap and convenient as is made out.
People are like sheep, simple as that.

Energy companies took the first step by subsiding the wealthy (usually more intelligent) customers by taxing the poorer customers. That kept most people happy enough for now, and also gives you a clue as to how easy it is for energy companies to coerce government into legislating in their favour.

The reverse Robin Hood approach to PV subsidies is ending though, and we’ll see what happens next.
 
Show me the initial and ongoing budget for an off-grid system to cover the power and energy needs of an Australian all-electric family home expecting to run heating, cooling, water heating, cooking and an EV or two.

Our biggest day was 144 kWh and peak 5-min power 13.5 kW.

How much would I need to spend to have a suitable system installed? How much should I set aside each year for maintenance and allowing for replacement of equipment?
 
Nothing stopping you from doing that. Just comply with the electrical installation requirements and you are good to go.

There are even package off-grid systems you can buy (not that I am in any way endorsing or recommending them nor do I have any affiliation with any such outfit), just a couple of examples:

And we have specialist off-grid system installers, although they are rarer than the grid-tied solar PV installers.
Thanks… I’ll look into rainbow … I think they have an office near me
 
Show me the initial and ongoing budget for an off-grid system to cover the power and energy needs of an Australian all-electric family home expecting to run heating, cooling, water heating, cooking and an EV or two.

Our biggest day was 144 kWh and peak 5-min power 13.5 kW.

How much would I need to spend to have a suitable system installed? How much should I set aside each year for maintenance and allowing for replacement of equipment?
Power price average is 29c/kwh (for NSW).

At 140kwh/day, that is $40.60/day
$14819 / year.

I have installed dozens of Winston LiFePO4 / REC BMS / SMA based systems.

No failures to date, many systems approaching the ten year mark - a few well past that. For this exercise assume ten year replacement of all components.

Do you really think for less than $150k i couldn’t come up with a system that meets your needs?

Lets go with:
2 x Winston 400ah 48V packs / REC BMS
$35k
2 x Sunny Island 8.0H-13
$10k
4 x Sunnyboy 5.0H
$8k
20kw PV / racking / cabling
$15k
Miscellaneous cabling / fuses / enclosures / cooling etc
$10k
Kubota lowboy GL6000
$10k
Installation
$10k

Just under 100k. Gives you 50k over the next ten years for diesel on the super cloudy weeks and any required maintenance.

You can configure the system so that it has three individual power modes to ensure permanent power.

All components are available and in stock in Australia.

If you want to save heaps, get second hand SMA grid tie systems ( saves $20k ) and second hand generator from damaged light tower etc ( saves $8k )

You’re welcome.
 
In the USA, once connected to (most every) grid, you don't usually get to EVER disconnect; you could say I'm not using any power again, but they would still hit you with the monthly connection and other fees not related to actual power consumed. So, once hooked up, always hooked up. Monthly bill has to be paid.
I purchased this property in foreclosure, the fella that lived here for 12 years didn't have electricity for most of the 12 years. He would get disconnected all the time for not paying the utility bill. He didn't have a solar system either. Would get water from the neighbors or catch rain water. Heated with wood or 100 lb LP cylinders with a radiant heater (which killed him).

It is quite easy to go off grid, just don't pay the utility bill for a few months and the power company will make it easy for you. I've never seen anyone in my life be removed from a property forcefully after the utility cut off power when they were already living in the residence.
 
Sure ... you can skip "paying the bill", but if you read the contracts involved there's all kind of wording to do with collections & such, and destroying your credit.

Collection processes & credit never meant much to some folks ... but to most others? It's not the obvious way to go about trying to disconnect.

Again, over here, disconnecting from the grid isn't usually allowed, once connected; billing is forever. I was lucky in that I never connected in the first place, and now never will.
 
I'm just saying if one is forced to comply with the "rules" there can be alternatives.
 
"Do you build your own car? Grow the timber to be used to build your home? Supply every item of food you eat? Do you build your own internet servers and communications infrastructure to connect to the WWW or phone system? Electricity supply is just another service, and not everyone wants to look after an energy supply system when they have better things to do with their time."

Well ... yeah ... we do many of those things ourselves, right now. That's self-sufficiency. Technology exists these days to make it easy to do so; all it takes is the willingness to learn and do. We continually move towards pulling more things in, and jettisoning things that are controlled by others. Control by others usually means more costs for them to do it, or savings if you DIY. We put in every single system, and maintain/improve it ourselves.

Time? It is something we trade for autonomy. If someone else does "it", then we have to pay more for it, and have to work longer to pay for it (I think resulting in less time overall). If we do it, we pay less, work less, etc. (I think resulting in more time). Mortgage-free, off-grid ... all headed in the right direction.

Not opposed to other folks choosing to pay for others to do it ... very impressed that there are more alternatives for folks not wanting to.

Again, pay (over time) about $200k to get an SPS from the grid (from my reading of Hybrid Systems data). Or, do like we did, and put one in for less than $15k (still less than the $30k the grid wanted). It will be interesting to see how the grids play this "we can do DIY better than you can".
 
Well ... yeah ... we do many of those things ourselves, right now. That's self-sufficiency. Technology exists these days to make it easy to do so; all it takes is the willingness to learn and do.
Sure but to have a high level of self sufficiency you will need arable land. It’s just not a feasible option for most. Cities, suburbs etc.

So what happens when you do try to do everything is you start to work with neighbours and others as it’s more efficient to share knowledge, experience, equipment etc. next thing you know you’re building your own local grid.
 
At 140kwh/day
Thanks for the detailed breakdown. As I said, that was our peak day. Don’t need nearly that much most of the time. Average consumption is more like 30 kWh/day.

But that’s the problem. All that extra overhead to deal with just 0.5% of the time.

No chance $100k is going to be spent to go off-grid. My annual bill with the grid PV I do have plus the small off grid system is going to be less than $1k.

Getting 90% of the way costs 15% of the full off-grid experience. I’m happy to pay the grid for the rest. My capex is better put to energy efficiency measures.

Cheers
 
Thanks for the detailed breakdown. As I said, that was our peak day. Don’t need nearly that much most of the time. Average consumption is more like 30 kWh/day.

But that’s the problem. All that extra overhead to deal with just 0.5% of the time.

No chance $100k is going to be spent to go off-grid. My annual bill with the grid PV I do have plus the small off grid system is going to be less than $1k.

Getting 90% of the way costs 15% of the full off-grid experience. I’m happy to pay the grid for the rest. My capex is better put to energy efficiency measures.

Cheers
No matter what your usage, the only reason the grid is cheaper is because your energy is largely being paid for by taxing people - 2/3rds of whom can’t access your generous feed in tariff and infrastructure subsidy.

It’s very simple to optimise the components i listed to closely match your consumption - the result will easily be cheaper per kwh than the average energy price. I’ve set up plenty of systems using that framework.

My systems easily cope with averaging over 30kwh/day, and cost less than 45k. The first one is approaching 12years in commission, the second one coming up to four years. The only maintenance has been trialling components for suppliers.

I have a foot in both camps, my rental has no PV, and with SA’s high energy prices the tenants pay way more for power than me.

My parents on the other hand, have 3 phase power and were early adopters of the PV subsidies, not only did they enjoy 60c/kwh feed in tariff for many years, they were allowed to feed in on a phase they rarely used, so over the last decade they have had their power bill paid plus received extra cash thanks to moronic taxpayers like me who as a group were too dumb to put a stop to it. We’ve essentially paid the energy companies for a significant portion of their energy generation infrastructure, which they will shortly stop paying for.

If i had access to feed in tarriffs i would be happy to have your system until they end - this thread was specifically relating to standalone systems though.

Back to the original topic of the thread - i agree it’s a conspiracy theory on my part that it will be made impossible to get a certificate of occupancy for a fixed off grid dwelling without an energy company contract, but I honestly can’t see any other reason for them to enter a market that didn’t invite or need them.
 
not only did they enjoy 60c/kwh feed in tariff
All the state govt PFIT schemes closed many years ago and it's only a relative handful of early adopters who still receive such credits.

2/3rds of whom can’t access your generous feed in tariff

The rest of us get roughly the wholesale daytime market value for our excess exported production while in WA the feed in tariff is 2 c/kWh (more after 3pm), or nothing if you opt for a larger system.

and infrastructure subsidy
That subsidy (STCs) is not confined to solar PV. It also applies to heat pump hot water systems. So yes, most homes do have the opportunity to take advantage of it even if they do not have solar PV. They can use it to reduce their purchased energy consumption in other ways. Especially helpful for those seeking to get off gas or when they need to replace their water heater.

STCs are not funded by taxpayers. They are a tradable commodity which are sold on a market and mostly purchased by polluters needing carbon offsets in order to meet their emissions obligations.

I can't help what policies were put in place, only respond to them. But blaming solar PV for high power prices is a bit rich considering the subsidy represents 3/5ths of bugger all of the cost of retailer electricity (a significant majority of which is tied up in transmission and distribution costs).

FITs and STCs are not the issue of concern.

The primary concern is to do with the retail tariff paid by consumers, with well over half of that being cost recovery for the transmission and distribution networks. As a result a home installing grid tied solar PV will reduce their grid imports, so they end up paying significantly less for the network than their non-solar neighbour, even though they both need the grid equally. This is the inequity of most concern (as raised by several organisations, including the St Vincent de Paul Society).

You will be happy to learn that the distributors in the NEM are about to begin introducing two way tariffs of one form or another.

The three distributors in my state (NSW) are the first cabs off that particular rank and each will use a different approach but from 2024 onwards there will be fees applied to both exports and imports. These fees are levied by the distributor to the retailer who manages that's customer's electricity account, so what retailers actually do with their retail tariff structures is yet to be seen.

Of course there is all the usual hysteria about "taxing the sun" but frankly it is a wise move, especially when you consider the requirements which go along with applying such a two way tariff structure. It won't eliminate FITs, just reduce them.
 
"So what happens when you do try to do everything is you start to work with neighbours and others as it’s more efficient to share knowledge, experience, equipment etc. next thing you know you’re building your own local grid."

I think we're missing the definition of homesteading here ... self-reliant and *independent*.

We are mortgage-free, off-grid, provide all our own services. Don't need anyone else, so no need to "start a grid" with others. This is micro-everything ...

We do socialize with other like-minded homesteaders ... hamburgers on family get-togethers is about all the sharing involved. As they are independent as well, they would resent any attempt to start relying on each other for anything else.

Solar is key, and micro-generation is but one of the ways to freedom from all kinds of control ...

Having a grid provide our micro-generation "system" invites control back into the equation ... while I would never want my "grid" to provide it, I'll still monitor to see if any US grids offer what the AU grid is now offering. Got to follow the money to see what's really going on.

If nothing else, I think they are just cost-cutting (while maintaining control), which is one of the reasons we went micro-gen (without the control), and this was 10 years ago.
 
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