diy solar

diy solar

Off-grid project in the south of France - 1.4kW / 4.8kWh

psish

New Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2022
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Hello everyone,

I finished sizing and planning a project for an off-grid location in the south of France (Hérault). I'd like your expert opinion and input on the sizing, wiring and hope everything is correct so I can start building!

Sizing - Estimation :​

Capture d’écran 2022-04-15 à 15.23.26.png

From that, I went with 1400W 24V panels.

Wiring Diagram:​

Schema Solaire V3.png

Parts List:​

  • 2x 24V 330W panels
  • 2x 24V 370W panels
  • 4x GEL Superwatt 12V 100Ah Batteries
  • MPPT 100 | 50 Victron Charge Regulator
  • Victron Inverter Pure Sinus phoenix 24 | 800VA
  • Victron Lynx Distributor
  • Victron BMV-702
  • Victron Cerbo GX
  • Master Switch - Single Pole - 4Way selector battery park
  • DC Breaker 32A - Panels
  • 2x MEGA fuse 60A/32V on the Lynx Distributor (for MPPT and Inverter)
  • 2x MEGA fuse 250A/32V pour battery parks
  • MC4 cables for the panels
  • AWG4 cables for battery parks
  • AWG8 cables for the charge controller & inverter to Lynx Distributor
  • VE.Direct cables to connect Cerbo GX to BMV-702, to the charge controller and to the inverter.

Questions:​

  1. Does the sizing appears correct?
  2. Does the wiring diagram seems correct?
  3. Are the fuse size correct?
  4. Are the cable size correct?
  5. What do you guys think?

Thank you very much for your expert advice and input!

Cheers,
John.
 
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Does the sizing appears correct?
You have 1132Wh/day of power usage. Your battery bank is about 5000Wh but only 50% usable so that's 2500Wh. So your battery can provide just over 2 days of power without any recharging.

You are planning 1400W of solar so it will take just under an hour (assuming the full 1400W) to replenish your daily usage. Many factors will reduce the actual solar you get on a given day. You will certainly have cloudy days in the winter where you will not get enough solar to recharge your batteries.

Over time you may decide you need more solar and/or more batteries so your system can make it through more than two days of poor solar conditions.

Does the wiring diagram seems correct?
I see two things I would change.

1 - Use bus bars to connect your parallel battery strings together. This will make it much easier to add a 3rd set of batteries in the future if needed and to make all of the connections simpler.
2 - 4 solar panels in parallel requires that each panel be fused. This is best done using a combiner box. More on this later.

Are the fuse size correct?
Your 800W 24V inverter can pull up to 800W / 24V / 85% efficiency = 40A.
Your SCC can output up to 50A.

That's all you have connected to the battery. So the choice of 250A fuses for each battery string seems very excessive. And given your choice of 4AWG wire for the batteries, a 250A fuse is far too big for the wire. A fuse is meant to protect the wire so it is critical that the fuse size must not be too big for the wire. The largest fuse you should use on 4AWG wire is 150A.

For the inverter and its 40A load I would suggest a 50A fuse.
For the SCC and its 50A load I would suggest a 65A fuse. You probably won't be able to find a 65A fuse. 70A would be fine. 60A will probably work too.

Each battery string really only needs a 70A fuse for your planned setup. But I would use a 150A fuse with the 4AWG wire. This allows you to use a larger inverter if needed in the future.

Are the cable size correct?
The choice of 4AWG wire for the batteries is plenty big enough with the 800W inverter and 50A SCC. That choice of wire will actually let you grow up to about a 1600W inverter if ever needed.

For the 50A SCC you really should use 6AWG. The choice of 8AWG is too small.
For the 40A inverter the choice of 8AWG is marginal if you will regularly run it at the full 800W. 6AWG would be a better choice.

You don't mention what size wire you will run from the solar panels to the SCC. The size will depend on your final solar panel arrangement, the current of each panel, and the distance from the panels to the SCC.

What do you guys think?
Why 2 different sized solar panels? I would suggest just using 4 of the same wattage. 4 370W would be a better choice. You will be slightly over paneled with a 50A SCC. A 60A would allow you to take full advantage of the 1480W but the 50A will still work. I also strongly suggest arranging the 4 panels in 2S2P instead of 4P unless you have a lot of shading issues. 2S2P will eliminate the need for a combiner box and the extra fuses. It will also allow for smaller wire from the panels to the SCC. And you would only need 1 pair of Y connectors instead of 3 pairs.

If you do go with a 60A SCC then you will want 6AWG with a 75A fuse.

You should play around with Victron's MPPT calculator. You can enter your final panel configuration and it will show you the best choice of MPPT:


I can't be sure but your choice of an 800W inverter might be too small. Anything with a motor will have a big startup surge that can easily be more than double the running wattage. So your 450W vacuum may surge close to 1000W on startup. The Phoenix 800W inverter may be able to handle that surge. I would try to find someone with more experience with such use to confirm that the 800W inverter will handle your uses.

Since you are planning on a Cerbo GX then you might want to look at adding the associated touch screen display. If you do that then you can use the Victron SmartShunt instead of the BMV-702.
 
Many thanks for your very insightful inputs. Amazing! Here's my answer:

You have 1132Wh/day of power usage. Your battery bank is about 5000Wh but only 50% usable so that's 2500Wh. So your battery can provide just over 2 days of power without any recharging.

You are planning 1400W of solar so it will take just under an hour (assuming the full 1400W) to replenish your daily usage. Many factors will reduce the actual solar you get on a given day. You will certainly have cloudy days in the winter where you will not get enough solar to recharge your batteries.

Over time you may decide you need more solar and/or more batteries so your system can make it through more than two days of poor solar conditions.

Right, the issue I was facing with a smaller installation was several cloudy days in a row. I might think of upsizing the batteries then.

Why 2 different sized solar panels? I would suggest just using 4 of the same wattage. 4 370W would be a better choice. You will be slightly over paneled with a 50A SCC. A 60A would allow you to take full advantage of the 1480W but the 50A will still work. I also strongly suggest arranging the 4 panels in 2S2P instead of 4P unless you have a lot of shading issues. 2S2P will eliminate the need for a combiner box and the extra fuses. It will also allow for smaller wire from the panels to the SCC. And you would only need 1 pair of Y connectors instead of 3 pairs.
So, I actually already own the two 330W panels, and since I wanted to reach 1400W (I am fairly limited on space, so 4 panels is pretty much my max), I just added two 370W to reach that 1400W. But I could also add two 400W (the max I could find around me for a decent price) to get up to 1460W and then use your idea of a 60A. Wiring in 2S2P is a great idea, but wouldn't that mean the panels would be in a 48V arrangement ? (They are all 24V panels.

You should play around with Victron's MPPT calculator. You can enter your final panel configuration and it will show you the best choice of MPPT:

I didn't know that tool existed, thank you very much!

I can't be sure but your choice of an 800W inverter might be too small. Anything with a motor will have a big startup surge that can easily be more than double the running wattage. So your 450W vacuum may surge close to 1000W on startup. The Phoenix 800W inverter may be able to handle that surge. I would try to find someone with more experience with such use to confirm that the 800W inverter will handle your uses.
Right, I never thought of the motor power surge, I can actually test the vaccum right now and see how much it draws on startup and I'll see what I can do from there. But from everything you mentioned maybe a 1600VA inverter wouldn't be a bad idea anyway.

Since you are planning on a Cerbo GX then you might want to look at adding the associated touch screen display. If you do that then you can use the Victron SmartShunt instead of the BMV-702.
Right, I thought of that but the display draws some extra power and the installation will be in a separated shed, the BMV is really for a quick look, I plan on mostly using the cloud to see the data, especially since I am not home most of the day but want to monitor if everything is alright for the family back there.

Thanks a lot for your answser, it's amazingly useful..!
 
So, I actually already own the two 330W panels, and since I wanted to reach 1400W (I am fairly limited on space, so 4 panels is pretty much my max), I just added two 370W to reach that 1400W. But I could also add two 400W (the max I could find around me for a decent price) to get up to 1460W and then use your idea of a 60A. Wiring in 2S2P is a great idea, but wouldn't that mean the panels would be in a 48V arrangement ? (They are all 24V panels.
The problem is with mixing different sized panels to one charge controller. The larger panels will be limited by the smaller panels. With two 330W panels and 2 370W panels you will effectively have 4 330W panels.

If you don't want to buy 4 new matching larger panels then you could put the 2 330W panels on one charge controller and 2 other larger panels on a 2nd charge controller. Depending on the final choice of panels and charge controllers, it might be cheaper to buy 4 new panels versus buying two charge controllers.

Ignore any reference to 12V/24V/48V panels. None of that applies when using an MPPT charge controllers. Only the actual panel voltages (Voc and Vmp) matter to the MPPT charge controller.
 
The problem is with mixing different sized panels to one charge controller. The larger panels will be limited by the smaller panels. With two 330W panels and 2 370W panels you will effectively have 4 330W panels.

If you don't want to buy 4 new matching larger panels then you could put the 2 330W panels on one charge controller and 2 other larger panels on a 2nd charge controller. Depending on the final choice of panels and charge controllers, it might be cheaper to buy 4 new panels versus buying two charge controllers.

Ignore any reference to 12V/24V/48V panels. None of that applies when using an MPPT charge controllers. Only the actual panel voltages (Voc and Vmp) matter to the MPPT charge controller.

Got it, thanks! So how about 5x 330W panels, would that make sense? Although, I am not sure I can find the exact same pannels anymore, so even if they are 330W, I guess the VoC/Vmp/Isc would be slightly different... Is there a way to wire 5 panels, or maybe I should shoot for 6, but then I really need to find some space to set them up :D

Cheers
 
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5 panels isn't ideal since your only option is either 5P (all in parallel) or 5S (all in series). 5S would require a very expensive high voltage charge controller. 5P would work but you need to use a combiner box and fuse all 5 panels.

6 panels (if you have the room) would be better since you could set them up in 3S2P or maybe 2S3P (but that requires a combiner box and 3 fuses).

You don't need the exact same panels. If you can find other 330W panels with close values of Voc, Vmp, Isc, and Imp then you will get reasonable results.
 
Cool, thanks, I guess I'll have to find room for a 6th panel :ROFLMAO:

This is the ones I have right now:
  • VoC 40.5
  • Vmp 32.5
  • Isc 10.3
  • Imp 9.85
At the shop near my place I see they have these panels available for 129 Euros each:
  • VoC 40.6
  • Vmp 33.8
  • Isc 10.39
  • Imp 9.76
Those doesn't seem too far off? (I don't know how much of a margin is acceptable)
 
It's my understanding that you will not have any issues with those two similar sets of panel specs. They are close enough.
 
I might think of upsizing the batteries then.

If you haven't bought them already... just go LFP (24V is just fine for your size) and be done with worrying. Personal opinion, obviously.
But honestly, Victron equipment and all... gel batteries? arrabbiato1.gif
Great job in planning, BTW :·)
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If you haven't bought them already... just go LFP (24V is just fine for your size) and be done with worrying. Personal opinion, obviously.
But honestly, Victron equipment and all... gel batteries? View attachment 91356
Great job in planning, BTW :·)
-
Thank you!

Well, I wish I could go lfp... But I don't know if it's just around here, but right now in France the prices are:
- 2x 12V 200Ah Gel = 660 Euros
- 1x 24V 200Ah LFP = 4,000 Euros

So the gap is a bit too big for me at the moment... Even for a longer lifespan and less backpain carrying them to the shed ?
 
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I recently bought two 24V 110Ah Pylontechs at Bricomart for €2200. So I have 220 Ah 24V LFP.
Cheap enough for you to drive to Bricomart in Girona :·)
They've gone up a bit... not much.

[EDIT] Ah... and... 110 AH of LFP are roughly equivalent to 200 Ah of Lead-acid. So, hey :·)
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Oh actually... The shop near me have these in stock...
 
Ok, I'm back with a different plan! Very different, and way more expensive, but the talks on LFP made me change my mind!

Let me know what you guys think!

Wiring:​



Solar Diagram V4.png

Parts List:​

  • 2x Pylontech U3000C LFP Batteries 48V 3.55kW
  • Lynx Distributor
  • SCC MPPT 150 | 35 (Calculated here)
  • Inverter Multiplus 48|1200|13
  • Venus GX
  • SmartShunt 500A/50mV
  • 4x 400W Risen Energy Panels (details above)

I guess the unknown for me here is the fuse/wire sizes...
The only fuses I see for 48V systems are way too big for what I have. The Multiplus seems to be 13A, I can not find any fuse that low for 48V. For the SCC, a 40A fuse would do, but same deal. And the batteries would need something like 70A fuse, I believe. Or is there something that I don't get? Same thing for the wires, I am not sure what AWG size I should use.

Thank you very much!
Cheers,
John.
 
Me, I don't use fuses. I use circuit breakers. They do the same job, but can be tripped manually for maintenance and the like.
Just use propper (with at least two ps ;·) DC breakers for the DC side. For the AC, any decent hardware store will have pretty much any size. Not expensive.

As to wire size, you can search for "wire size calculator", and take your pick :·)

[EDIT] Quite the little system you're planning. Congrats. Good thing my screen is facing away from my electrics, or... if they caught a glimpse of that drawing of yours, they'd probably have a fit and start malfunctioning ;·)
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The Multiplus seems to be 13A
1200W / 48V / 90% efficiency = 28A. So wire for 30A. 30A x 125% = 37.5A. So use a 40A fuse for the inverter from the battery.

The 35A SCC needs a 45A fuse but 40A will probably work. You'll probably never see much over 30A from the SCC.

Given your setup your batteries don't really need any more than a 40A fuse.

The problem is that the Lynx Distributor is meant for MEGA fuses and you won't find such small MEGA fuses.

Why 48V? You only have a 1200W inverter. That's easily done with a 12V or 24V system. Though you seem to have a very large solar array for such a small inverter and small batteries (3.5kWh).
 
The problem is that the Lynx Distributor is meant for MEGA fuses and you won't find such small MEGA fuses.
Yeah that is the issue I am facing... I guess I could remove the Lynx Distributor, switch to busbars and DC Breakers as Don suggested, as I should find smaller 48V Breakers...

Why 48V? You only have a 1200W inverter. That's easily done with a 12V or 24V system.
The choice of 48V isn't exactly a choice. I mean it helps that it'll allow me to grow much bigger in the future if I need to. But mainly it's because the shop near me only have 48V Pylontech, and the price of 2x48V 3.5kW is cheaper than 3x24V 2.4kW that I can find online or around me. And getting everything from the same shop will also get me a fairly big discount, so I only pay around 2,000 euros for the 7.2kW Pylon batteries at 48V.

Do you think I should target 24V whatsoever ?
Though you seem to have a very large solar array for such a small inverter and small batteries (3.5kWh).
Yeah it might be too disproportionate to have 1600W PV array for 7.2kWh batteries (3.55 real usage), but I based the calculations on the forecasted daily kW yield and my daily kW usage. I have ~1kW/day of projected power usage, and given the past two years forecast I need to be able to sustain sometimes 3 days of bad weather straight. Also, I based this so in December it takes almost two days to replenish the 3.5kWh and in July it takes only a couple hours.

Does it make sense ?

Cheers,
 
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