You meant well.
I was very fixated on inverters for the last few months while doing my due diligence research for my own system. Figures I ended up with the best.
Open Ground when testing outlets on inverter
- Thread starter steviep19
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I was very fixated on inverters for the last few months while doing my due diligence research for my own system. Figures I ended up with the best.
Delmar
Solar Addict
FWIW I tested my Reliable 2500W inverter with my house breaker panel. Per above the Reliable manual states “if the house neutral is combined with the ground, connect the black wire with it. Do not connect the inverter yellow wire (ground) with the black wire (neutral).”
For this test I made no modifications to the inverter internal ground wire. However I connected a neutral inline 5A fuse in the event of a 60V short. Wired all three leads to my home breaker panel effectively bonding the inverter neutral and grounding the case. Worked just fine, no smoke and did not blow the 5A fuse. Loaded it to around 4.5A. None of the house GFCI outlets tripped.
Disconnected the inverter from the panel and tested with nothing connected to the AC output: confirmed the floating 60V hot-ground and 60V neutral-ground.
This totally contradicts both the manual and the Reliable response to steviep19. What do I do now?!? I guess I leave the inverter wiring as-is because it works as intended. Plus the inverter case and circuit board are safely grounded.
Edit: in hindsight I should have checked for current on the ground wire just to make sure nothing funny was happening.
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gnubie
Solar Wizard
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Not all of the 120V single phase bodge 60-0-60 models have the ground terminal, that is between the current carrying terminals on the case, tied to the 0V point of the inverter's output. It's 'safe' for them to have that central ground terminal tied to one of the current carrying terminals, as you have done. Nothing blows up.
The trouble is, you don't know what you have purchased until you get it and check. Most people don't even know that they need to check. Even people here weren't necessarily aware of the issue with this make inverter.
The trouble is, you don't know what you have purchased until you get it and check. Most people don't even know that they need to check. Even people here weren't necessarily aware of the issue with this make inverter.
Delmar,
I can confirm that not all of the Reliable Inverters have that.
I've owned 3x of their inverters over the years.
1. 24v 800w - Did not have this 60-0-60 issue, and was properly grounded
2. 24v 2000w - Did not have this 60-0-60 issue, but was not properly grounded
3. 24v 5000w - Has the 60-0-60 issue, and was not properly grounded.
I believe they only used this method on some of their larger inverters to save money. Even with this issue, I've had no problems with the inverter.
I can confirm that not all of the Reliable Inverters have that.
I've owned 3x of their inverters over the years.
1. 24v 800w - Did not have this 60-0-60 issue, and was properly grounded
2. 24v 2000w - Did not have this 60-0-60 issue, but was not properly grounded
3. 24v 5000w - Has the 60-0-60 issue, and was not properly grounded.
I believe they only used this method on some of their larger inverters to save money. Even with this issue, I've had no problems with the inverter.
Delmar
Solar Addict
I was planning to purchase the 3000W 48V model that has a much larger case. But the 2500W model was around $100 less, and considering I will likely never load over 1800W bought it instead. The rare time my frugality has actually paid off.
Otherwise would make an interesting test on your 5000W bonding the neutral with with an inline fuse since mine also has the 60-0-60 issue.
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I havn't worked the nerve up to do it quite yet. I bought mine a bit more than a year ago, and I'm a little nervous about breaking something that is currently working fine, and that I can't return, and that it'll even work. If Neutral get's bonded to ground, and theres a 60v from hot to ground, I'm not convinced that's a good solution.
My 3000w 48v WZRELB does not have the problem. It’s about 5 years old.
Others have it. A total crapshoot.
Electric Personality
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Not a crapshoot though if you buy an inverter that meets the U.L. (or ETL) standards.
Risk you run when you rate watts per dollar as more important than everything else. I get it, solar power ends up being a lot more expensive than a naive impression can conceive of. Once the cost of batteries are finally accepted, the urge to reduce costs elsewhere are very strong. And one metal box looks much like another.
Electric Personality
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I bought a "Accurate Tools" 3000 watt inverter on ebay for a little over $200. It of course had (unbeknownst to me such a problem even existed) the bonding issue. It was a perfectly good inverter otherwise, and I sold it for $170 on the list of craigs. I figure I paid $30 for 'tuition" to learn about this. Oh well. Bought an AIMS for $350 (2000 watt this time - all I really need) that is UL listed, so I should be done with this problem.
Delmar
Solar Addict
If I were using the system daily I would have no problem spending double+ for a reliable dependable inverter. The Reliable inverter works (or at least tested) as intended, and I hope to never use it. My inverter is only for grid-down, and haven't needed it since Hurricane Ike in 2008 that knocked out power for 10 days. Never lost power with Hurricane Harvey in 2017.
Then again I am writing this as not one but two hurricanes are headed my direction....
Other than grid-down its only a really fun educational toy. I probably have only $800 total invested in my 4x100W panels, tilt-mount, SCC and 2500W inverter. Batteries came with the 48V golf cart so I consider as no additional cost.
Then again I am writing this as not one but two hurricanes are headed my direction....
Other than grid-down its only a really fun educational toy. I probably have only $800 total invested in my 4x100W panels, tilt-mount, SCC and 2500W inverter. Batteries came with the 48V golf cart so I consider as no additional cost.
I understand. I am building a solar system into a van conversion RV. I would be very vexed if this system ever failed to work.
Delmar
Solar Addict
Also if you are building a 48V or higher system there are not many affordable options. I first had an industrial UPS that was bulletproof except for not liking the higher battery voltage when connected to solar panels.
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I agree, 24V is heavily used on boats so you have a lot more options. If you are doing a large residential system then 48V makes fantastic sense. 24V is pretty optimal if your inverter is 2000W to 3000W.
Even with this Live Grounding issue. I'm still very satisfied with the inverter. The inverter has a really great surge capacity, and the output voltage stays betweedn 118v - 122v, even while powering 3000+ watts. I've had it running a 12,000 BTU, 5,000 BTU, Air Conditioners, a refrigerator, dehumidifier, while making coffee or using the microwave, during the day, voltage stayed nice an constant, even during the surges when the AC's are starting.
But I guess time will tell when it comes to the longevity of these "generic" inverters.
That is good feedback. I lost confidence when I saw reports that you needed to derate these kinds of inverters by 3 to 1 and even 7 to 1 factor in one case when powering inductive loads like a microwave oven.
And the cheaper inverters lacked a programmable low voltage disconnect feature which I consider very important. That pushed me up into the $700 range of products.
I finally decided shore power charging and operation was worth having and at that point a high quality inverter/charger like a Victron Multiplus became the better value option. And I don't expect it to ever let me down.
Electric Personality
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Oh, it will, sooner or later. Nothing lasts forever.
Also, many folks get by with a 2k inverter for a 900 watt microwave. No direct experience yet, but that’s my plan.
If I can get 15 years out of it I will be delighted. Heck if I last 15 years I will be delighted.
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