Orion 24/12-70 tripping BMS

[chrisski]

As a user of the Orion 70 amp 24/12 converter, just some notes I had not seen covered

-The converter had no readable data on the converter, blue tooth or cable. People hear Victron and think the entire line does that data reading, but it does nit

-Wire size can be important for the 70 amp converter. My DC system had 6 AWG and I did some upgrades.

-The thumb nuts to secure the wire came loose easily. I secured with tape, but others replaced with standard nuts.

 

[MisterSandals]

Do you have your battery connected to the PV Input of the device (AIO?) on your battery? Seems odd.

 

[rmaddy]

Do you have your battery connected to the PV Input of the device (AIO?) on your battery? Seems odd.
View attachment 90632

I briefly thought the same at first glance. The labels are below the connection points. The OP stated there is no PV connected yet. The two big red and black wires are in the battery connections.

 

[Deustheorem]

No, I think you have the right device. How it is wiring may be part of the problem. Until you address what I put in post #5 you're shooting in the dark.

Post #6 I answer some of the questions, sorry it wasn’t marked as a reply. I’ve cleaned all the connections and made sure they are tight. All cables under even full load are room temperature.

Do you have your battery connected to the PV Input of the device (AIO?) on your battery? Seems odd.
View attachment 90632

PV Input is the label for the hole above it.

 

[Deustheorem]

Try removing the negative cable between the converter and the fuse block.
See if you still get a bms short circuit disconnect.
If you do then remove the postive cable between the converter and the fuse block.
See if you still get a bms short circuit disconnect.
Then report back.

I tested some of that yesterday, if I remove the 12v positive side of the Orion I still get a short circuit disconnect. If I remove both the positive and negative of the 12v side I will also still get a short circuit disconnect.

If I remove the 24v positive side and leave the 24v negative connected it will run fine.

It's currently been running fine for 16ish hours without an issue. I've finally got time today to start trying some more things to see if I can intentionally cause it to happen. I'll start taking voltage/amp readings today at various points.

 

[John Frum]

I tested some of that yesterday, if I remove the 12v positive side of the Orion I still get a short circuit disconnect. If I remove both the positive and negative of the 12v side I will also still get a short circuit disconnect.

If I remove the 24v positive side and leave the 24v negative connected it will run fine.

It's currently been running fine for 16ish hours without an issue. I've finally got time today to start trying some more things to see if I can intentionally cause it to happen. I'll start taking voltage/amp readings today at various points.

I can't map your responses to my test requests.
My intent was to see if the short is internal to the converter or downstream.

 

[John Frum]

If it turns out to be internal, it might be intersting to see if removing the remote switching plug opens the short.

 

[Deustheorem]

After turning things off and on and disconnecting and reconnecting I think I found some interesting information.

Basically if the all-in-one is not actively charging the battery I cannot connect the Orion. The remote switching plug has no effect on this issue. If the positive cable is connected to the Orion in any way when the all-in-one is not charging the bms triggers short circuit.

Now after everything is on and running, if the charging stops everything continues without issue.

Having the all-in-one plugged into shore power or not doesn't seem to have any effect either. I even disconnected the all-in-one and just attempted to turn it on with just the battery and the Orion and it causes a bms short circuit.

The BMS software won't refresh fast enough for me to get active readings as it happens.

 

[MisterSandals]

If the positive cable is connected to the Orion in any way when the all-in-one is not charging the bms triggers short circuit.

I wonder if this is because of inrush current to charge the capacitors? This could cause the BMS to overcurrent.

This would produce a pretty big spark too.

What happens if you precharge the capacitors by placing a resistor inline between battery + and Orion for a few seconds before connecting the + wire from the battery? An incandescent light bulb works or something like a big resistor (25ohm 25w or anywhere in general area) will work.

 

[chrisski]

What happens if you precharge the capacitors by placing a resistor inline between battery + and Orion for a few seconds before connecting the + wire from the battery?

My Orion sparks when hooking to power. I am putting a resistor inline to precharge three thing

-The Orion converter
-3000 watt invertrr
-24 volt 38 amp charger

All three of those spark when power is applied. The inverter is by far the biggest, but the others spark a lot.

 

[Deustheorem]

I wonder if this is because of inrush current to charge the capacitors? This could cause the BMS to overcurrent.

This would produce a pretty big spark too.

What happens if you precharge the capacitors by placing a resistor inline between battery + and Orion for a few seconds before connecting the + wire from the battery? An incandescent light bulb works or something like a big resistor (25ohm 25w or anywhere in general area) will work.

I would say that is it.

I used a 25w light bulb. With the breaker off to the Orion, the Orion switching plug removed and all-in-on disconneted.

After the spark to the light bulb, I turned on the breaker then put the Orion switching plug back in and everything worked.

 

[Aakelley]

Found this thread since I was having the same problem with I think exactly the same equipment: Victron 24/12-70, Growatt AIO, LifePower4 batteries. I ended up solving it by simply installing a switch in the loop of the control port and turned it on after everything else had fully booted up - batteries and AIO.

 

[Deustheorem]

Found this thread since I was having the same problem with I think exactly the same equipment: Victron 24/12-70, Growatt AIO, LifePower4 batteries. I ended up solving it by simply installing a switch in the loop of the control port and turned it on after everything else had fully booted up - batteries and AIO.

I've done the same with also a precharge resistor and momentary switch.

But the original problem of my battery BMS faulting for "Short Circuit Protection" is still happening randomly. I even disconnected all DC loads including the Orion, installed a Victron BMV 712 with beta firmware to log statistics.

With the growatt only running the inverter and hooked to shore power (My solar is waiting on me to finish the roof rack). At some point the battery wigs out. I've looked at all the logs and statistics available to me and I cannot see anything change.

So far I've just assumed without solar that my shore power was causing something to happen.

Found someone else describing similar problem here.

Growatt SPF3000 Inverter Stops Working

I just wanted to see if maybe anyone had any insight into an issue I'm having with my Growatt SPF3000TL. I'm just now getting it all set up and started using it yesterday but randomly the Inverter portion stops working and I'll have to reset the on/off switch to get it to work again. I'm only...

diysolarforum.com

 

[MisterSandals]

But the original problem of my battery BMS faulting for "Short Circuit Protection" is still happening randomly.

"Randomly" may only be how it appears. Have you been measuring inrush current when connecting your inverter? The inrush current pulled may be different each time depending on the capacitor state of charge. Or your inrush current may be at the cusp of tripping your BMS based on the amps and/or the number of seconds your BMS is set to handle before tripping.

Short circuit detection is usually a pretty simple measurement by any device that implements short circuit protection.

 

[Aakelley]

I've done the same with also a precharge resistor and momentary switch.

But the original problem of my battery BMS faulting for "Short Circuit Protection" is still happening randomly. I even disconnected all DC loads including the Orion, installed a Victron BMV 712 with beta firmware to log statistics.

With the growatt only running the inverter and hooked to shore power (My solar is waiting on me to finish the roof rack). At some point the battery wigs out. I've looked at all the logs and statistics available to me and I cannot see anything change.

So far I've just assumed without solar that my shore power was causing something to happen.

Found someone else describing similar problem here.

Growatt SPF3000 Inverter Stops Working

I just wanted to see if maybe anyone had any insight into an issue I'm having with my Growatt SPF3000TL. I'm just now getting it all set up and started using it yesterday but randomly the Inverter portion stops working and I'll have to reset the on/off switch to get it to work again. I'm only...

diysolarforum.com

I have my Growatt 3000 set to AC as primary since its a mobile install and I want to use shore power whenever it there to save / charge the batteries and have not had any of those problems.

 

[Deustheorem]

"Randomly" may only be how it appears. Have you been measuring inrush current when connecting your inverter? The inrush current pulled may be different each time depending on the capacitor state of charge. Or your inrush current may be at the cusp of tripping your BMS based on the amps and/or the number of seconds your BMS is set to handle before tripping.

Short circuit detection is usually a pretty simple measurement by any device that implements short circuit protection.

It was randomly timed, but after having the issue come up a few more times, and digging into the metrics from the BMV 712. I've found that it always occurs after the battery reaches 26.48 +/- 0.01v.

I have my Growatt 3000 set to AC as primary since its a mobile install and I want to use shore power whenever it there to save / charge the batteries and have not had any of those problems.

I had my growatt 1: UTL as it's primary source. I've since switched it to 1: SBU and 14: SNU and so far it hasn't had an issue even when reaching that voltage. I also decided to connect the lifepower4 BMS communication to the Growatt to see if that changes anything.

I'll be watching it closely for a few days and see what happens.

 

[Deustheorem]

So far no issues since changing settings in the Growatt.

Recap: At 26.48 +/- 0.01v the BMS would go into "Short Circuit Protection" fault. Time frame didn't seem to be a factor, neither did load or inverter on or off, just whenever it hit that voltage.

Originally thought the Orion 24/12-70 was the cause of the issue. It's inital draw will trigger the error in the battery but after removing it completely from the system the problem continued.

After a decent amount of diagnosing to no avail, I read about someone else having an issue similar to mine and also being set to utility as primary source. I went back and changed the following settings.

Old Setting -> New Setting
1: UTL -> SBU
14: CUE -> SNU

With those changes I've had zero issues with running both DC loads and AC Inverter. Either plugged into "shore" power or running purely off the battery. Voltage has since been able to go below and be charged back up without issues.

Also note that my solar panels are not connected yet as they are pending on me to install them.

Information:
Battery: EG4-Lifepower4 24v 200ah
All-in-one: Growatt SPF 3000TL LVM-24p
Model: SKSL00.0005302
Main CPU Version: 502 609 09
Secondary CPU Version: 000 000 00

I'm still watching it closely to be sure but it seems to be good.

Thank you to everyone for all the help.