diy solar

diy solar

Possible increase of heart attack risk after mRNA vaccine.

I don’t want these chats because medical misinformation during a pandemic kills people. But Will needs to decide what is permissible once and for all. BMcl got a thread locked. The next day he opened a new thread solely to circumvent the lock of the first thread. That one gets taken down completely. In the space of a few days he finds the opportunity to spread the same information once again and Will says it is okay. That makes no sense. If you can keep coming back and doing the same thing that caused an administrator to take action, this gets us no where. The original reasons were valid but if Will says it is okay then so be it. The thing is this thread is just a continuation of the locked and deleted thread and will soon reach a thousand posts of a small group peddling ridiculous memes about Covid while others point out why they are wrong.
Will isn't going to police the veracity of the content on the forum, that would be very difficult and somewhat subjective. Since we are free to respond and balance all arguments with counter-arguments people will have to make decisions on their own. It might be different if he were to recommend drinking bleach, but only a crazy person would say that...
 
Natural immunity fades, odds of getting reinfected further down the road, and the vanishingly small risk associated with vaccination? People are going to be saying "let's wait and see what the long term effects are" forever. Vaccine side effects are typically seen in the short term (hours or days) or long term (30 days) not months or years.

It is important to keep our eyes open but when you try to tie any of the leading causes of death in this country to something besides their known primary causes, you have a lot of work ahead of you to eliminate the known causes and statistical variations which requires a very significant causal effect to be definitive in the short term.
IMHO: Vax immunity fades faster and is hardly worth the risk.
VAERS is being under reported and not fully investigated. Senators are grilling FDA and CDC about it.
News is censored under the guise of suppressing misinformation.
Thousands of first responders, including nurses, refuse the Vax. Many complain about their voices not being heard.
Gibraltar has the highest Vax rate, 97%, and had to lock down again due to Delta Variant.
Remember, these mRNA treatments would not be called a Vaccine in 2019. FDA changed the definition.
IMHO: Not safe, Not effective, Definitely experimental. Why expose your whole population?
 
You are short sighted when you believe only the mechanistic existence, and your senses. At times I have seen the future and spoke prophecy. Just Gods way of telling me my mechanistic world view is wrong. How many cultures say this world is not real? It's a Vail of Tears, Dreamers dreaming dream, an Illusion, or the more recent Matrix simulation.
LOL. Our brains evolved to look for causes for effects. This was beneficial as it allowed us to gain additional knowledge and understanding and begin to predict things that would further increase our survivability. Unfortunately part of that process was attributing unknowns to something greater than us. This has taken the form of religion across most of the world, so it should not be surprising. This in itself is not evidence of a god, but more of a standard in how our brains function. As centuries past, more and more of what we attributed to a god became causally known. The domain of a god has gotten smaller and smaller, and we can now simply state "we do not know" rather than "it must be god".

I don't blame people who still believe in these antiquated notions, as long as they don't affect society negatively. Bringing it up in a discussion about science is rather telling about where your logical faculties end and your faith in the invisible unprovable begins.
 
We have information based on actual trials. You want to rely instead on right wing blogs. That is not observation; it is at best hearsay from a known unreliable source.

I think it is useful to share links to data sources. The official channels are managed with the intent of influencing people rather than providing accurate information.

I have found what appears to be factual information behind some disinformation claims (e.g. "The vaccinated are more likely to catch covid") and from what I read, immunity from natural infection appeared slightly greater than from vaccination for that population. It was not a controlled study, of course. Other official reports from results in other populations put the protection from natural infection around 1/5th as great. Also not a controlled study. But 5:1 difference between two large data sets.

Official advice to us was to unmask if vaccinated, for a while. And, boosters for healthy adults were not approved by CDC initially, only for those at higher risk. Both of those pieces of poor advice were deliberately given, at risk to the health of the vaccinated who actually wish to best protect themselves, for the purpose of motivating the unvaccinated to change their minds.
 
I don’t want these chats because medical misinformation during a pandemic kills people. But Will needs to decide what is permissible once and for all. BMcl got a thread locked. The next day he opened a new thread solely to circumvent the lock of the first thread. That one gets taken down completely. In the space of a few days he finds the opportunity to spread the same information once again and Will says it is okay. That makes no sense. If you can keep coming back and doing the same thing that caused an administrator to take action, this gets us no where. The original reasons were valid but if Will says it is okay then so be it. The thing is this thread is just a continuation of the locked and deleted thread and will soon reach a thousand posts of a small group peddling ridiculous memes about Covid while others point out why they are wrong.
That was not my doing. I now labeled this group to make it crystal clear that you can post as you wish.

And it's hard to say what is medical misinformation. And even if the information is incorrect, I am not going to police it. It is up to every individual human to educate themselves and learn the fundamentals of human pathology. If someone follows bad advice on the internet, that's on them.

I am tired of trying to hold people's hands through every dangerous thing in their life. Imagine me having a three minute "electricity is dangerous" clip in every video I make. It's silly. And it does not matter to me if there is a pandemic or not. The only rule in this reality as a human is survival, and it is everyone's individual responsibility to take care of themselves. Considering the rates of obesity and type two diabetes, people need to care more about themselves. And I am not going to be the one to yell at them and baby them through life. I am tired of this lack of personal responsibility in our society. People need to stop blaming others, and blame themselves for problems.
 
I think it is useful to share links to data sources. The official channels are managed with the intent of influencing people rather than providing accurate information.

I have found what appears to be factual information behind some disinformation claims (e.g. "The vaccinated are more likely to catch covid") and from what I read, immunity from natural infection appeared slightly greater than from vaccination for that population. It was not a controlled study, of course. Other official reports from results in other populations put the protection from natural infection around 1/5th as great. Also not a controlled study. But 5:1 difference between two large data sets.

Official advice to us was to unmask if vaccinated, for a while. And, boosters for healthy adults were not approved by CDC initially, only for those at higher risk. Both of those pieces of poor advice were deliberately given, at risk to the health of the vaccinated who actually wish to best protect themselves, for the purpose of motivating the unvaccinated to change their minds.
Yes good points. The "truth" in health sciences can be quite vague and require massive amounts of data over a prolonged duration. One cannot state exactly what is "misinformation" very easily.
 
IMHO: Vax immunity fades faster and is hardly worth the risk.
Super, glad your honest opinion matters to... your friends and family?
VAERS is being under reported and not fully investigated. Senators are grilling FDA and CDC about it.
Senators are idiots about science if you haven't noticed
News is censored under the guise of suppressing misinformation.
Conspiracy Theory
Thousands of first responders, including nurses, refuse the Vax. Many complain about their voices not being heard.
Yup and hundreds of thousands don't. Lets pick the vocal minority because they support what we think.
Gibraltar has the highest Vax rate, 97%, and had to lock down again due to Delta Variant.
Wrong, it is 118%
Remember, these mRNA treatments would not be called a Vaccine in 2019. FDA changed the definition.
Wow, so you are saying they did not see the future when a specialized breakthrough in vaccine technology would occur allowing cellular machinery to be utilized for the purpose of generating immunity within the host, and because they didn't see the future they couldn't define vaccine properly? U R awesome!
IMHO: Not safe, Not effective, Definitely experimental. Why expose your whole population?
So special.... let's ignore the fact that most vaccine side effects occur within the standard window of studies and testing, and ignore the fact that it went through several phases of trial before being deemed safe, and instead make up some supposed possible outside chance of a side effect or two in 5 years time. Thanks for at least stating it was your opinion rather based on anything.
 
If any of these posts leave the chit chat zone, I will be all over it and shut it down. But I don't think we should lock any thread in chit chat zone, personally. What's the point? It will just continue in another thread.

Sometimes locking a thread is great for cooling off a fight between full grown adults (wild that we have to do that sometimes) but I understand that people are very emotional.

And trying to figure out what is right and wrong with electrical systems is straightforward. There is always an actual answer. With something like health sciences, drawing conclusions with accuracy is much more difficult!
 
Last edited:
IMHO: Vax immunity fades faster and is hardly worth the risk.
VAERS is being under reported and not fully investigated. Senators are grilling FDA and CDC about it.
News is censored under the guise of suppressing misinformation.
Thousands of first responders, including nurses, refuse the Vax. Many complain about their voices not being heard.
Gibraltar has the highest Vax rate, 97%, and had to lock down again due to Delta Variant.
Remember, these mRNA treatments would not be called a Vaccine in 2019. FDA changed the definition.
IMHO: Not safe, Not effective, Definitely experimental. Why expose your whole population?
-The definition of vaccination meme is both wrong and meaningless regardless of its merit. mRNA shots provoke a specific immune response to the Covid virus. You want to fuss about a name?

You promote science and then cite a series of right-wing talking points. What is the population of Gibraltar? How many deaths in the last month? Did you even look at the underlying data? Why not talk about NYC with over 8 million people and nearing a 90% vaccination rate? https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases-deaths-tracker.html
 

Attachments

  • FFShE75XsAQIWC6.png
    FFShE75XsAQIWC6.png
    27.5 KB · Views: 3
Last edited:
-The definition of vaccination meme is both wrong and meaningless regardless of its merit. mRNA shots provoke a specific immune response to the Covid virus. You want to fuss about a name?

You promote science and then cite a series of right-wing talking points. What is the population of Gibraltar? How many deaths in the last month? Did you even look at the underlying data? Why not talk about NYC with over 8 million people and nearing a 90% vaccination rate?

That graph you provided (NY city?) is quite different from the one for California!
Much lower surge around end of 2020, beginning of 2021. California looks like it hadn't learned anything.

1638200750646.png
 
That graph you provided (NY city?) is quite different from the one for California!
Much lower surge around end of 2020, beginning of 2021. California looks like it hadn't learned anything.

View attachment 73865
Yes. What I don't like about these types of arguments is that they ignore the fact that Covid hits in cycles in different geographic regions. A few months ago Florida was the worst in the country and now is the best. Minnesota was the best and now is close to the worse. It is very difficult to draw any conclusions. Talking about Gilbraltor in this context is close to meaningless. For this issue (vaccine effectiveness) it is much better to drill down to the same population under the same circumstances. For instance, the vaccinated vs non-vaccinated hospital admission and ICU rates. This is from the hospital system where I worked in Michigan last week.
 

Attachments

  • 241439247_10158878454484232_6029625666276521956_n (1).jpg
    241439247_10158878454484232_6029625666276521956_n (1).jpg
    120.1 KB · Views: 2
Yes, but to see if that graph says vaccination decreases or increases rate of hospitalization/ICU/Ventilator, we need also the vaccinated/unvaccinated (and ideally also "recovered") percentages from population.
 
Yes, but to see if that graph says vaccination decreases or increases rate of hospitalization/ICU/Ventilator, we need also the vaccinated/unvaccinated (and ideally also "recovered") percentages from population.
West Michigan has about a 54% vaccination rate.
 
Elections are ALWAYS a choice between the lesser of two evils.

That's a core issue. You have only two options and those two forgot how to work together.

A contrary observation invalidates the theory.

This is a misconception. For example, observation of Mercury's orbit could not be explained with standard Newtonian theory. This did not invalidate the theory, it just mean that there were some aspects not accounted for (i.e., the theory was not complete). General relativity added the missing pieces.
 
Not saying you are. Many use this and similar to justify skipping the vaccine. I am annoyed that the information is posted here even if in the off-topic section.
Maybe change the section's name to "Any bullshit you want to post" With a warning to avoid sanity.
 
West Michigan has about a 54% vaccination rate.
232 unvaccinated patients, 40 vaccinated.
Approximately equal numbers of both in the population.
Taking that to be 50/50, and without controlling for differences in the vaccinated/unvaccinated population (information we don't have),
1 - (232/40) = 0.828, vaccination was 83% effective at avoiding hospitalization.

That's compared to entire unvaccinated population. We don't know how many are second time around, so this could include a mix of infection induced immunity. Result is about 5x better for vaccinated than unvaccinated, but official reports have also said vaccine induced immunity is 5x better than natural infection induced immunity. Seems to indicated immunity from prior infection has almost zero effectiveness, which I am not inclined to believe. Differs from other reports. What I am willing to believe is that "dose" from natural infection varies greatly between patients. But probably highest in those who need protection the most!
 
232 unvaccinated patients, 40 vaccinated.
Approximately equal numbers of both in the population.
Taking that to be 50/50, and without controlling for differences in the vaccinated/unvaccinated population (information we don't have),
1 - (232/40) = 0.828, vaccination was 83% effective at avoiding hospitalization.

That's compared to entire unvaccinated population. We don't know how many are second time around, so this could include a mix of infection induced immunity. Result is about 5x better for vaccinated than unvaccinated, but official reports have also said vaccine induced immunity is 5x better than natural infection induced immunity. Seems to indicated immunity from prior infection has almost zero effectiveness, which I am not inclined to believe. Differs from other reports. What I am willing to believe is that "dose" from natural infection varies greatly between patients. But probably highest in those who need protection the most!
I think you identify the big problem with prior infection stats in that it is impossible to quantify the initial infectious dose or viral load. We know that the immune response to the vaccine is dose-dependent and that the severity of a Covid infection seems to strongly correlate with the infectious dose. We know natural infection induces some level of immunity or the vaccination would not work. At least with the vaccination immune response though you are able to gauge somewhat the degree of immunity you have at a certain time. For instance, we do know how long the booster shots will last but we will have a good idea from watching Israel that boosted a few months before us. Relying on natural immunity is a crapshoot in more ways than one.
 
I agree with Will. No need for any warnings about electricity. We all know it is not anymore dangerous than getting our medical treatment from the horse section of the feed store.
 
I think you identify the big problem with prior infection stats in that it is impossible to quantify the initial infectious dose or viral load.

OK, severity of covid infection could depend on infections dose.
I was thinking that people with weak antibody response had been able to fight off the infection fairly well, so weaker immunization is OK. Those who had a more severe infection showed a stronger response, which gives them the greater immunization they need. But maybe also due to how much exposure.
 
Back
Top