diy solar

diy solar

Possible to power my shop totally off grid?

ruc

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May 9, 2020
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New guy here, and I will admit I know very little about solar. I have watched Will's videos and read a lot on here. (This is like getting a drink from a fire hose) I have a 4800 sq. ft. shop that I would like to be able to power totally off grid if possible. My totals from the energy audit/system sizing totals are as follows. Some things include air compressor, well pump, and a welder.
Full Load Wattage. 25090
Full Surge Wattage. 21300
Full Load Whr. 35480
Is this possible within reason.....or am I living in la la land?
 
WARNING, I am quite new to solar. But want to make an attempt on conceptualizing.

First of all I think the feasibility of this project depends on how you break-even the costs you will incur for building a system meeting your needs.

Second, the design; it can be approached in different ways. If you do consume 35KWh per day, then you need around 24 panels producing around 300W during 5 hours per day. So probably people will tell you to round up to 30 as not every day is fully sunny.

Whenever you add the battery and willing to use the net to cover the gap between consumption and production, then you can undersize a bit your system and supply the last 5% of energy required with the net. So 24 300W seems fine.

The battery has to supply 48V seeing the high load you require. If you really need to cover a full load with just the battery then you need at least 520Ah storage capacity. But at a continuous load of 25000W this will only last 1h, so to cover one full day of say 8 hours (eg. rainy day) you need 8 times 520Ah.

I think for a country with sunny days makes sense, because the battery can cover the gaps between sunny days when it is raining. If you are in northen european countries, get ready for many days with the battery empty doing nothing. Maybe however, it can save you something when you load it in the night at lower price per KWh.

For pricing we'll need somebody's else help.
 
I am in the US. state of South Carolina. My biggest power users will be the air compressor and the well pump. They won't be run continuously so I'm not sure how to size for them. I wonder if it is possible to build a system that I could add to in the future. Thanks for your comments
 
Totally possible.
The question is whether this is the most practical or cost-effective approach.
Is utility power available? Is net-metering available? If so, grid tie PV so you produce your own power but "store" it in the grid as accounting on your bill is probably the best way to go.
What would utility electric rates be? I think you can make AC from PV and deliver it to the grid for about $0.05/kWh

35 kWh/day is certainly doable. 7 kW peak from PV (about 8 or 9 kW STC of panels) would do that. You can build that yourself for about $7000 as grid-tie.
Production would be less in the winter. How about your consumption? Do you need to generate 35 kWh/day in the winter?

If off grid, you might want batteries to last 3 days without sun. Or, reduce your consumption.
Just lasting one night (maybe 12 kW drain) is a lot less battery than 3 full days (105 kWh/ drain.)
Either can be done, but battery for those 3 days could be 3 forklift batteries for $15k to $20k, more for other types.

Load of 21 kW or 25 kW is doable. Surge on an induction motor is about 5x its nameplate rating.
My system (the four Sunny Islands in my picture) can put that out continuously if enough battery.
If big loads are in the daytime you can have smaller battery and less battery inverter, make PV generation oversize. Such a system would run A/C during the day, support small loads at night.

What is the rating of the well pump? If bigger than your air compressor, it will determine your inverter requirement.
 
That's if you try to run an extended time without sun.
If you only try to run heavy loads (shop tools, A/C) while the sun shines, I think you can build the entire system for $20k
If needed, small generator would take care of cloudy days.
 
You can do very precise simulations here:
PV-GIS
I can't give a deep link, but select your location, then at the right; "off-grid",
enter your configuration and select on the bottom
"battery state" that will give histogram of the state of charge of the battery.
"perfrmance" that will give you the amount of energy not captured...
So you will see how many days you will probably have without power, and hence without business :-(

Ideally, since the usage is not residential, you should upload a consumption file.
 
Utility Power is not available. It's looking more and more like it would not be cost effective. I have had the well drilled, but I have not bought a pump yet. I think it would need a 1hp submersible pump. I used 1600 watts running and 4500 watt surge in the calculations.
 
Utility Power is not available. It's looking more and more like it would not be cost effective. I have had the well drilled, but I have not bought a pump yet. I think it would need a 1hp submersible pump. I used 1600 watts running and 4500 watt surge in the calculations.
Assume surge watts is 5x whatever nameplate says. Your numbers sound reasonable, and good inverters (5 kW, low frequency) should have no trouble starting it.

You can get a Grunfos pump which runs directly off PV panels. It would have a VFD running a 3-phase motor to adjust speed matching power production. I think they also have AC powered pumps which wouldn't have a starting surge because VFD operated.
How deep is the well? How much water do you need?

I think it can be very cost effective, so long as you don't need much power during periods of darkness.
With lots of PV panels and not very big battery, you can start and run pretty good size motors.
Purchase price amortized over 7 years might be same as utility bills would have been.

How much do you want to spend? I'll try to suggest what could be assembled with favorite brand, SMA.
 
Check the posts by JeepHammer. He ran a machine shop off grid.

There was some conflict so he doesn't post anymore.
 
What kind of shop is that supposed to be, that runs far away from any utility power?
If it is a shopping activity that is closely related to sunshine weather ( e.g. boat rentals) then the figures are completely different.
You need far less battery storage which is by far the most expensive part.
Have you got a gas generator to bridge potential unavailability?
 
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Not sure if this is exactly where you are but it will be ball park and give some indication of actual sun to make calculations on. Not sure if you know the way these numbers work but basically you just multiply your planned array size in Watts by the monthly average insolation factor to predict the average daily output wattage.

The challenge is always in the winter months. If you can deal with the winter you will normally have the summer covered. The ony fly in that ointment can be AC.

While you are in a planning phase its worth looking at any ways you can optimise to reduce the power consumption of your shop. One of the easiest ways to make off grid systems viable is typically to use less power in the first place. Little savings add up too. I appriciate though that workshop tooling is rarely built with energy conservation in mind.
 
Assume surge watts is 5x whatever nameplate says. Your numbers sound reasonable, and good inverters (5 kW, low frequency) should have no trouble starting it.

You can get a Grunfos pump which runs directly off PV panels. It would have a VFD running a 3-phase motor to adjust speed matching power production. I think they also have AC powered pumps which wouldn't have a starting surge because VFD operated.
How deep is the well? How much water do you need?

I think it can be very cost effective, so long as you don't need much power during periods of darkness.
With lots of PV panels and not very big battery, you can start and run pretty good size motors.
Purchase price amortized over 7 years might be same as utility bills would have been.

How much do you want to spend? I'll try to suggest what could be assembled with favorite brand, SMA.
Thanks, I would appreciate any suggestions. Here is what I have figured
20 Led Lights 32 watts
1 Refrigerator 700 2200 surge
1. Well Pump 1600 4500
1 Electric water heater 4500
1 TV 500
1 Clothes dryer 5400
2. garage door opener 2350 4700
1 Air compressor 1600 4500
1 coffee maker 1000
1 Electric drill 600 900
1. Electric stove 2100
1. Heat pump 4700 4500
 
What kind of shop is that supposed to be, that runs far away from any utility power?
If it is a shopping activity that is closely related to sunshine weather ( e.g. boat rentals) then the figures are completely different.
You need far less battery storage which is by far the most expensive part.
Have you got a gas generator to bridge potential unavailability?
Sorry, I may not have been clear. It is my personal garage/ workshop. It is a 4800 sq.ft. steel building a large tract of land. The building is already built. It will have a bathroom and an office kitchen area. Duke Power will not supply power.
 
Thanks, I would appreciate any suggestions. Here is what I have figured
20 Led Lights 32 watts
1 Refrigerator 700 2200 surge
1. Well Pump 1600 4500
1 Electric water heater 4500
1 TV 500
1 Clothes dryer 5400
2. garage door opener 2350 4700
1 Air compressor 1600 4500
1 coffee maker 1000
1 Electric drill 600 900
1. Electric stove 2100
1. Heat pump 4700 4500
The maths won’t work out for solar and certain types of electrical use. Heating is a key one.

Look at swapping out electric stoves, water heaters and space heaters for different options

Propane is a great option for all
Solar water heaters are 50% efficient as opposed to 20% for pv
Diesel space heaters designed for vehicles are a great space heater for solar pv systems
 
Sorry, I may not have been clear. It is my personal garage/ workshop. It is a 4800 sq.ft. steel building a large tract of land. The building is already built. It will have a bathroom and an office kitchen area. Duke Power will not supply power.
So you will not have a lot of night use, that's good.
Only the fridge will need considerable battery energy during the night.
The well should run on direct sun energy only, i suppose it can provide enough water on running only when sun shines.
The cloth dryer... Hmm, must that be on a workshop? If yes, can it run only on excess energy?
I'd consider propane water heating / cooking, that will reduce cost dramatically.
Eventually you could consider direct solar water heaters for tub water heating or enough hot water storage to just feed the excess energy and disconnect them when instant power is needed.
For surge power needs like tools/welding equipment I'd consider a gas generator.
 
Thanks, I would appreciate any suggestions. Here is what I have figured
20 Led Lights 32 watts
1 Refrigerator 700 2200 surge
1. Well Pump 1600 4500
1 Electric water heater 4500
1 TV 500
1 Clothes dryer 5400
2. garage door opener 2350 4700
1 Air compressor 1600 4500
1 coffee maker 1000
1 Electric drill 600 900
1. Electric stove 2100
1. Heat pump 4700 4500
The refrigerator surge I believe, because the 700W peak running is a resistive heating element. motor is only 200 to 400W.
Not so sure about well pump 4500. I would assume 5x 1600 for 8000W surge.
Garage door opener I don't believe 2350 running watts.
Air compressor, 8000W surge
Heat pump - what is the nameplate rating for refrigerator compressor? It may have resistance heating backup. If 4500 or 4700W is compressor running watts (believable for good sized system), then 20,000W or so surge.

2x Sunny Island would deliver 11,500W continuous from battery, 22 kW surge for 5 seconds.
Continuous power derates at higher temperature, down as low as 4400W at 140F, so good to install inside air conditioned space. (along with your batteries)

You can connect almost any amount of AC coupled Sunny Boy PV inverter, depending on how many Wh per day you need. Maximum with 2x SI6048 Sunny Island would be 4x Sunny Boy 7.7 kW for about 30 kW peak. With typical "maximum" PV panel array all oriented one direction, would produce 150 kWh/day in the summer. You could connect about 60 kW of PV panels with multiple orientations (Morning/Afternoon, or Summer Morning/Afternoon & Winter Noon) for more level power throughout the day and some clipping middle of the day, about 250 kWh/day.

If you have a generator, it will auto-start when batteries low, recharge, stop generator. That would let you have smaller battery and PV array. For instance, size battery bank for just one night instead of 3 days. That could be 1/6 or 1/12th as big, since most use is expected to be daytime.

Water heater should be enabled as a "dump load", to take excess PV production when nothing else needs power. Same for clothes dryer, but of course a clothesline is a practical alternative.

You could set up priority switching between major loads, if there is a problem supplying all at once. For instance, air compressor pressure control could be wired to interrupt heat pump thermostat. Both of those could interrupt well pump. Or, use a battery SoC signal to shed larger loads (Sunny Island has programmable relays for that), e.g. only run well pump at > 80% SoC.

With the maximum Sunny Boy PV configuration of twice the Sunny Island battery inverter, only half the power production can go to battery. The rest can be consumed as AC, or else production is curtailed.

Refrigerator doesn't need to run at night. A top freezer model lets cold air spill to the fridge. Smaller battery needed.

One reason I like AC coupled PV (besides highest efficiency for the grid-tied net metering which is most of my usage), is that battery can be arbitrarily small. I have programmed 80A (4kW) recharge rate, but have PV capacity several times that. During grid failure, my batteries recharge gradually in the morning and then float, while PV generated power is curtailed to supply that plus A/C and other loads. PV is much cheaper than batteries, so I waste excess production rather than trying to store more than one night's worth.

My system is similar to what I described except it has 4 Sunny Island for 23 kW from battery, half as much Sunny Boy. 20 kWh of AGM battery. My moderate climate doesn't need as many kWh for AC. Off-grid operation is infrequent, so AGM battery for 800 deep discharge cycles isn't used nightly, expect 10 year life.
 
Continuous power derates at higher temperature, down as low as 4400W at 140F, so good to install inside air conditioned space. (along with your batteries)
Wow!
Air conditioning is surely not the best way to optimize off-grid energy usage.
The devices should be installed at a good ventilated shady place, eventually put an additional fan on the inverters, but an AirCon to save Energy is surely not the best way to go...
 
Not saying an air conditioner to save energy.

The inverters do have fans, which run as needed for cooling.

But if his home will be in Death Valley and he runs A/C for the house so as to not join the local inhabitants,
I would suggest putting Sunny Island and batteries indoors.
Inside, the pair of Sunny Islands can produce 11.5 kW continuously. Outside in extreme heat, that would drop to 4.4 kW continuous, possibly not enough to keep his A/C running. At 10 kW output, might add 500W heat load the A/C would have to get rid of.
 
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