Power station UPS mode doesn't work

[mciholas]

Traditional UPS units using lead acid batteries are a plague since their batteries age out every 3 years. This creates huge waste and cost especially if you have a fair number of them. But you can't find hardly any UPS units that use LFP batteries which would be a great improvement.

Instead you can find power stations like the Bluetti AC2A or Ecoflow River 3. More expensive than a traditional UPS, but actually less cost due to battery longevity. Also has more energy and more flexibility. So I bought a Bluetti AC2A based on the UPS function claim.

I soon learned that if the unit discharges to zero, when the power comes back on, it will not power the load back up. This makes it useless for, say, powering a server, router, or other device you want to come back on. There is no configuration that fixes this. Arg! Bluetti customer support was worthless, the units simply don't work properly as a UPS and they feel no obligation to fix this.

I then bought the Ecoflow River 3. This claimed to have a proper UPS function and what I read is that is has an "AC always on" configuration. Bingo, what I need, finally someone doing it right.

Nope. The "AC aways on" feature was removed and replaced with an "output memory" feature where the unit will remember what state the DC or AC output is when it lost power and then restore that state. Great, sounds perfect. I enable that feature, turn on the AC, and it should always keep that powered.

Nope. When the unit gets to the low battery threshold without grid, it shuts down the AC output. If the grid then returns, the AC output does NOT turn on again. Arg!

I contacted Ecoflow and they did the reflexive thing of saying it should work like the manual, but it doesn't. They finally admitted so and said they will refer this to engineering. Apparently, the "AC always on" feature did work, so they broke it.

So I have tested two units neither of which can be a proper UPS.

Why are companies so incompetent on this feature? Very frustrating.

Also, why is no one making a good basic LFP UPS? This feels like an on purpose industry decision to keep selling replacement UPS and filling landfills with bad UPS units. Sad.

Anybody have a suggestion for a UPS device that uses LFP that ACTUALLY works properly?

Mike C.

 

[BentleyJ]

What you are describing is the "Black Start Up" problem. Yes, you are correct the Inverter-Power Station manufacturers are not targeting UPS users, well because there are UPS's.

I have to ask, what is the point of a UPS if the batteries are so undersized that the system shuts down occasionally anyway??

The easiest way to set up an inverter-LFP battery system is to get separate components. An inverter, a separate battery and a stand alone battery charger. Connect your critical load to the inverter and plug the stand alone charger into an outlet. When utility power is lost the critical load will have no power interruption.

Perhaps do some internet searches for Black Start inverters or better yet. Get bigger batteries and maybe a back up generator. Of course then the issue becomes one of being able to autostart the gen.

 

[Jmhai3]

Traditional UPS units using lead acid batteries are a plague since their batteries age out every 3 years. This creates huge waste and cost especially if you have a fair number of them. But you can't find hardly any UPS units that use LFP batteries which would be a great improvement.

Instead you can find power stations like the Bluetti AC2A or Ecoflow River 3. More expensive than a traditional UPS, but actually less cost due to battery longevity. Also has more energy and more flexibility. So I bought a Bluetti AC2A based on the UPS function claim.

I soon learned that if the unit discharges to zero, when the power comes back on, it will not power the load back up. This makes it useless for, say, powering a server, router, or other device you want to come back on. There is no configuration that fixes this. Arg! Bluetti customer support was worthless, the units simply don't work properly as a UPS and they feel no obligation to fix this.

I then bought the Ecoflow River 3. This claimed to have a proper UPS function and what I read is that is has an "AC always on" configuration. Bingo, what I need, finally someone doing it right.

Nope. The "AC aways on" feature was removed and replaced with an "output memory" feature where the unit will remember what state the DC or AC output is when it lost power and then restore that state. Great, sounds perfect. I enable that feature, turn on the AC, and it should always keep that powered.

Nope. When the unit gets to the low battery threshold without grid, it shuts down the AC output. If the grid then returns, the AC output does NOT turn on again. Arg!

I contacted Ecoflow and they did the reflexive thing of saying it should work like the manual, but it doesn't. They finally admitted so and said they will refer this to engineering. Apparently, the "AC always on" feature did work, so they broke it.

So I have tested two units neither of which can be a proper UPS.

Why are companies so incompetent on this feature? Very frustrating.

Also, why is no one making a good basic LFP UPS? This feels like an on purpose industry decision to keep selling replacement UPS and filling landfills with bad UPS units. Sad.

Anybody have a suggestion for a UPS device that uses LFP that ACTUALLY works properly?

Mike C.

This is why I built my own using the dolly setup mentioned here to "backup" all my components.
I started with a EG4-3k AIO and the EG4 LPv1 battery. I have since added two more batteries (Eco-Worthys) and have a small box wired to all my appliances and other components I want on backup power.

I have not tried it but the information I have read.

• Taking solar out of the equation. power is passing thru AIO and running loads and keep the batteries charged.
• Power goes out and transfers to battery.
• Batteries goes low to cut-off and cut-off and in turn AIO cuts-off.
• Power is restored and the AIO automatically turns on and will power loads and start recharging batteries.
  • This should all be the same even if you have solar which would do the same as the grid power if you lost it as well.
  • Either Solar or Grid should turn the AIO back on and function.

Maybe some can verify the AIOs do this in personal test or use. I have never needed it to function in this way yet.

 

[Brucey]

I contacted Ecoflow and they did the reflexive thing of saying it should work like the manual, but it doesn't. They finally admitted so and said they will refer this to engineering. Apparently, the "AC always on" feature did work, so they broke it.

I have two River 3s, glad I haven't updated the firmware recently where the ac always on feature in the "lab" would be taken away.

In any case its kind of crap as a standby ups.

 

[Brucey]

This is why I built my own using the dolly setup mentioned here to "backup" all my components.
I started with a EG4-3k AIO and the EG4 LPv1 battery. I have since added two more batteries (Eco-Worthys) and have a small box wired to all my appliances and other components I want on backup power.

I have not tried it but the information I have read.

• Taking solar out of the equation. power is passing thru AIO and running loads and keep the batteries charged.
• Power goes out and transfers to battery.
• Batteries goes low to cut-off and cut-off and in turn AIO cuts-off.
• Power is restored and the AIO automatically turns on and will power loads and start recharging batteries.
  • This should all be the same even if you have solar which would do the same as the grid power if you lost it as well.
  • Either Solar or Grid should turn the AIO back on and function.

Maybe some can verify the AIOs do this in personal test or use. I have never needed it to function in this way yet.

With seperates the sccs will provide power to the bus once the sun comes up, and then the inverter can turn on once voltage exceeds 49V for example (assuming 48V shutdown).

You can't dark start a traditional aio in this matter AFAIK. It's dependent on ac input in this case. So have to fire up generator, aio can then turn on and start charging batteries, at that time it can also start charging via solar. That's what BentleyJ means by dark start.

 

[Jmhai3]

With seperates the sccs will provide power to the bus once the sun comes up, and then the inverter can turn on once voltage exceeds 49V for example (assuming 48V shutdown).

You can't dark start a traditional aio in this matter AFAIK. It's dependent on ac input in this case. So have to fire up generator, aio can then turn on and start charging batteries, at that time it can also start charging via solar. That's what BentleyJ means by dark start.

OK,

Can "Dark Start" from grid and/or generator, but not solar... would need either grid or gen to start it (AIO) and solar would work in turn.

I know if I had the whole system setup as intended with grid, gen, battery, and solar the programming in the AIO should be able to hoop skip and jump from each power source as needed to maintain power thru every scenario one might see.

Except at night with no grid, battery, and/or fuel.

That would be the end game setup of my system if I ever get the opportunity to get solar setup and a remote start generator.

 

[Brucey]

OK,

Can "Dark Start" from grid and/or generator, but not solar... would need either grid or gen to start it (AIO) and solar would work in turn.

I know if I had the whole system setup as intended with grid, gen, battery, and solar the programming in the AIO should be able to hoop skip and jump from each power source as needed to maintain power thru every scenario one might see.

Except at night with no grid, battery, and/or fuel.

That would be the end game setup of my system if I ever get the opportunity to get solar setup and a remote start generator.

My delta 2 max will turn on and start charging once it sees pv input, even if powered "off".

Here's a thread about the problem with aios which involves tigo:

Thread 'EG4 6000XP & TIGO Dark Start Issues'

Feb 16, 2024

Hello All,
I am having issues with my system not being able to turn back on if my battery bank depletes and turns the inverter off. Because I have all of my panels connected to TIGO optimizers, they will not allow any power to flow into my inverter because once the inverter shuts off, it initiates a rapid shut down. I have to jerry rig power to the CCA when this happens to allow solar power to run back into the inverter. This is a major pain in the ass, especially if I am away from the camp. I need guidance on how to get my inverter to communicate with the CCA in a way that will allow my...

• JBoffgrid2022
• Replies: 8
• Forum: DIY Solar General Discussion

 

[mciholas]

Yes, you are correct the Inverter-Power Station manufacturers are not targeting UPS users, well because there are UPS's.

They advertise them as having UPS function. if so, then it should do it properly. The Ecoflow River 3 used to, but then they "improved" it.

I have to ask, what is the point of a UPS if the batteries are so undersized that the system shuts down occasionally anyway??

Because it eliminates a large percentage of nuisance power outages that last less than your run time. Say you need to bypass the main solar inverter, or the power blinks out for 10 minutes, or anything else.

*ALL* UPS have run time limits. A typical normal UPS has about 50 WH of energy it can delivery during back up, the power stations are ~200 WH or better, so they run a LOT longer than regular UPS. They just need to come back on after the battery has died.

For example, if the power station powers the Internet equipment for a remote solar installation, you want that to come back on if the solar system runs out of energy. You don't want to have to drive, fly, snowmobile, hike out there to fix it.

My particular use case was to backup my elderly mother's Internet equipment. She has a Bluetti AC2A there now but if the power ever goes out too long, she is going to lose Internet and I'm not sure I can direct her how to turn it back on over the phone. So I specifically bought an Ecoflow River 3 on the basis of the "AC always on" option only to find they had removed that feature with the broken output memory feature that doesn't memorize the output state at all.

The easiest way to set up an inverter-LFP battery system is to get separate components. An inverter, a separate battery and a stand alone battery charger.

Too much hassle and Rube Goldberg-ness to that. A trivial firmware change would fix them, but they don't seem to get it.

Mike C.