Preparing ground to a successful dispute on Alibaba in case of issues

[ephestione]

Hello nice people
I just came out of an adventure on Aliexpress, before getting to know this forum.
Long story short, got ripped by the infamous (I now realize) Ogreen, but joke was on them, won a long dispute and ended up paying ~960$ for 16 cells which were not "brand new grade A 280AH" as advertised, but rather ETC 240AH which had from 170 to 199AH left in them.

Now I'm about to place an order on Alibaba, found a 2yrs old seller with almost 40 feedbacks, proposing to sell 16 EVE 304AH for a gross 42c/AH including DDP (plus transaction fees). Sent a picture of said cell.

It is good, but not "too good to be true". And if I get not-EVE, and/or not-brand-new cells that still test over 304AH I'll probably be cool with it.

While I have experience on how to deal with Aliexpress disputes, I have never ordered on Alibaba before; I get the hang of it, I studied plenty, I know it is important to place everything in the contract first, at the "start order" phase, so then in case of issues, you have a clear case for the dispute, still, do you have experience with a situation where the seller is less than honest?

Any tips on how to deal with it? Other than filling the exact capacity, and QR requirement in "additional details", maybe also laying out what amount of refund you expect in case order is not as described? Anything else?

I could go with Quishou and 280AH at 44c/AH, but that wouldn't change much as I'd still be asking you the same thing ;-)

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Why not purchase from the commonly used sources on this site?

Sorry, but the joke is still solidly on you.

$960 for cells past end-of-life (<80% rated capacity) is a lose-lose. You still paid about 90% the going rate ($101 vs. $110-120/kWh) for new cells but got ragged out end-of-life cells that are very unlikely to last anything near their rated cycle life.

Not trying to be a dick. I'm just curious why you would choose this course again after finding this site having already been burned twice (once when you placed the first order, and again when you accepted a settlement sticking you with $960 worth of garbage).

 

[ephestione]

Why not purchase from the commonly used sources on this site?

Sorry, but the joke is still solidly on you.

931,82 EUR for cells past end-of-life (<80% rated capacity) is a lose-lose. You still paid about 90% the going rate (98,04 EUR vs. 106,77 EUR-120/kWh) for new cells but got ragged out end-of-life cells that are very unlikely to last anything near their rated cycle life.

Not trying to be a dick. I'm just curious why you would choose this course again after finding this site having already been burned twice (once when you placed the first order, and again when you accepted a settlement sticking you with 931,82 EUR worth of garbage).

Didn't take you as a dick, don't worry. Probably a tad harsh, but I'm a tough guy.

My understanding is that a reasonable rate is about 44-46c per AH, not familiar with the kWh conversion. I rounded up to 75% of that, which is not stellar, but better than keeping those same cells with no refund whatsoever.
Plus, I could resell locally and still make a profit.

Now, let's suppose I ditch the alternative Alibaba supplier that offers 42c/AH "304AH EVE", and let's say I go the Shenzen Quishou way and pay a little more for 280AH EVE, my question above still stands. Quishou has a better standing on this forum, yet it's not automatic warranty everything will go smooth and I won't wish to get a partial refund.

How do I setup my order contract so that I maximize the success of a dispute on Alibaba?

 

[ephestione]

...turns out the 115/kWh going rate you refer to, is 37c/AH. That's good, better than the 42c/AH I'm after with this alternative supplier.
Quishou made me 44c/AH which is almost 140/kWh. That's shipping included BTW, so I don't know which sellers and listing you are referring to, with such cheap prices; every purchase report I've seen on this board went for quite higher that price.

 

[houseofancients]

...turns out the 115/kWh going rate you refer to, is 37c/AH. That's good, better than the 42c/AH I'm after with this alternative supplier.
Quishou made me 44c/AH which is almost 140/kWh. That's shipping included BTW, so I don't know which sellers and listing you are referring to, with such cheap prices; every purchase report I've seen on this board went for quite higher that price.

btw, so i assume you're dutch.
if that is the case, take a look at nkon b grade, which are the same cells as quishou is selling, they are 156 euro.
otherwise, take a look at docan.
they are selling CATL 280ah cell from their warehouse in poland ( shipping 3 days) that seem to have tested well in the 290-300 range by quite a few folks here

 

[ephestione]

btw, so i assume you're dutch.
if that is the case, take a look at nkon b grade, which are the same cells as quishou is selling, they are 156 euro.
otherwise, take a look at docan.
they are selling CATL 280ah cell from their warehouse in poland ( shipping 3 days) that seem to have tested well in the 290-300 range by quite a few folks here

Not from Netherlands but Eu warehouses would be faster, yes. All prices in my posts are in dollars, to use a common unit of measure
I had already contacted Jenny Wu via email a few weeks ago, she quoted me an outrageous amount for 280AH EVE from China (I consciously decided to forget the number, but it was way, way, way above sunshine_eggo's 115/kWh), EU stocks had to be locked with a downpayment and were greatly more outrageous, if that's even possible.
I'm okay with waiting shipment from China, I am still in the process of setting up the panels and the system in general, plus I have this heavily used 8.5kWh storage that helps in the meantime, I'd like to get some inputs from you more experienced buyers, about ways to strengthen my possible dispute position on Alibaba in case something went wrong, which could happen with any supplier. My target is somewhere under 2000$ for 16 280AH cells, all costs included.

 

[houseofancients]

Not from Netherlands but Eu warehouses would be faster, yes. All prices in my posts are in dollars, to use a common unit of measure
I had already contacted Jenny Wu via email a few weeks ago, she quoted me an outrageous amount for 280AH EVE from China (I consciously decided to forget the number, but it was way, way, way above sunshine_eggo's 115/kWh), EU stocks had to be locked with a downpayment and were greatly more outrageous, if that's even possible.
I'm okay with waiting shipment from China, I am still in the process of setting up the panels and the system in general, plus I have this heavily used 8.5kWh storage that helps in the meantime, I'd like to get some inputs from you more experienced buyers, about ways to strengthen my possible dispute position on Alibaba in case something went wrong, which could happen with any supplier. My target is somewhere under 2000$ for 16 280AH cells, all costs included.

your target is unrealistic for good cells..
the lowest to the EU fir cells that are not used or terrible b grade would be about 2400 euro..

 

[Warpspeed]

Buy from a reputable seller that has a long established history of satisfied customers, and just pay the price asked.

There are Chinese companies that have slowly built up a good reputation for ethics and honesty, but they are not the cheapest out there.

Then there are the scam artists that will offer you a super deal.

What do you really want or expect ?

 

[ephestione]

But... but... @sunshine_eggo told me the going rate for new cells is about 115 per kWh, that makes 1900 for a pack of 16 320AH new cells

Okay, I just needed to get back at him.


I thank you for the feedback.
Let's suppose I decide to buy in the expensive range from one of the most reputable sellers on Alibaba. I will still want to cover for possible misshaps, since I'm not physically going at the seller's to test them cells with an EBC-A40.

So, onto the original question, how do I toughen up the buying contract on Alibaba to make it scammer-proof, even against the worst of malicious sellers, hence so much more for reputable ones? Any of you has had successful experience with Alibaba disputes until now and cares to share a few tips?

 

[brum]

My advice is also to go with a seller that has a good reputation and directly ask them for the price. You will likely not need to go for a dispute in that case.

2000 USD for 16 х 280Ah including tax and shipping is pretty close to what I got. Without waiting for the sweet spot moment with good discounts I managed to get 16 CATL cells for 2150 USD.

 

[ephestione]

My advice is also to go with a seller that has a good reputation and directly ask them for the price. You will likely not need to go for a dispute in that case.

1 934,69 EUR for 16 х 280Ah including tax and shipping is pretty close to what I got. Without waiting for the sweet spot moment with good discounts I managed to get 16 CATL cells for 2 079,79 EUR.

Currently interfacing with Docan, asking a quote for EVE 304AH which are at 117 a piece and about 50 days delivery, let's see the shipping costs as well... yet I would still very much like to get pointers to setup a tight contract just in case. Seems nobody on this forum ever reported filing and winning an Alibaba dispute?

EDIT: Got final quote from Docan, 16x EVE 304AH, 2148 DDP, think I will go for it, it's the same AH cost that Quishou gave me for 280AH, but Docan > Quishou from my understanding of the reports on this forum, and 304 carries less risk than 280 going by @houseofancients posts.


Again to the topic at hand, what I intend of writing in the "Additional notes" in the order on Alibaba is:
___
This sale is for 16pcs of brand new "EVE LF304" 3.2V LiFePo4 prismatic cells, with original, untouched QR, and capacity of at least 304AH each.
In case of discrepancy, the following refunds will be expected:
- used, not new: -20%
- reduced capacity: discount equal to capacity difference of the weakest cell of the pack (example, one cell has 20% less capacity, ~240AH, even if the rest have higher capacity, since the pack capacity will be determined by the weakest cell, the discount will be 20% over the cost of all the cells
___

What say you?

 

[brum]

Seems nobody on this forum ever reported filing and winning an Alibaba dispute?

I did. Here is the topic.

Again to the topic at hand, what I intend of writing in the "Additional notes" in the order on Alibaba is:

That's not going to work. You can't set conditions for the seller. And there should be protection for the seller from bad customers. I can easily modify a LiFePo4 test device to show lower than the actual capacity. So such a condition would not be fair.

What works is that you have the option to return the cells and get a full refund. If they are intact when they arrive back. But again - this won't work for you due to the shipping cost.

Aliexpress is a wild bet for cells. Alibaba is not so wild if you go with a well-known seller. If you don't want to make bets buy from a local seller where you can get a written warranty. With that, you can go to a judge in case of a problem.

 

[jimknopf]

Currently interfacing with Docan, asking a quote for EVE 304AH which are at 117 a piece and about 50 days delivery, let's see the shipping costs as well... yet I would still very much like to get pointers to setup a tight contract just in case. Seems nobody on this forum ever reported filing and winning an Alibaba dispute?

EDIT: Got final quote from Docan, 16x EVE 304AH, 2148 DDP, think I will go for it, it's the same AH cost that Quishou gave me for 280AH, but Docan > Quishou from my understanding of the reports on this forum, and 304 carries less risk than 280 going by @houseofancients posts.


Again to the topic at hand, what I intend of writing in the "Additional notes" in the order on Alibaba is:
___
This sale is for 16pcs of brand new "EVE LF304" 3.2V LiFePo4 prismatic cells, with original, untouched QR, and capacity of at least 304AH each.
In case of discrepancy, the following refunds will be expected:
- used, not new: -20%
- reduced capacity: discount equal to capacity difference of the weakest cell of the pack (example, one cell has 20% less capacity, ~240AH, even if the rest have higher capacity, since the pack capacity will be determined by the weakest cell, the discount will be 20% over the cost of all the cells
___

What say you?

I just received 16 eve 304Ah for 117/pcs +2-300$ shipping can’t remember exactly.
Arrived door to door after 40 days and are spotless.
The ordering process was easy, the provided updates about shipping and shipped within the USA via ups…
I’d recommend them…
I have disputed on Alibaba before and they could not care less and simply copy pst the excuses the seller brought up. I disputed my credit card charge, Alibaba tried to fight it but VISA ended up deciding in my favor…

 

[ephestione]

That's not going to work. You can't set conditions for the seller. And there should be protection for the seller from bad customers. I can easily modify a LiFePo4 test device to show lower than the actual capacity. So such a condition would not be fair.

You mean for real? No idea how someone could go about it, yet an EBC device with serial PC connection and video of procedure with produced capacity chart should be plenty of indisputable evidence, at least that's how I got almost the refund I requested on Aliexpress.

I just received 16 eve 304Ah for 117/pcs +2-288,73 EUR shipping can’t remember exactly.
Arrived door to door after 40 days and are spotless.
The ordering process was easy, the provided updates about shipping and shipped within the USA via ups…
I’d recommend them…
I have disputed on Alibaba before and they could not care less and simply copy pst the excuses the seller brought up. I disputed my credit card charge, Alibaba tried to fight it but VISA ended up deciding in my favor…

You mean you ordered and received the same exact cells I'm looking to buy, also from Docan? That is good feedback, thanks!
Something I've always wondered: if you have to fallback on a credit card chargeback, won't Alibaba, like, ban you forever as an "untrustworthy buyer", since it's Alibaba itself that will suffer the chargeback, not the seller?

 

[jimknopf]

You mean you ordered and received the same exact cells I'm looking to buy, also from Docan? That is good feedback, thanks!
Something I've always wondered: if you have to fallback on a credit card chargeback, won't Alibaba, like, ban you forever as an "untrustworthy buyer", since it's Alibaba itself that will suffer the chargeback, not the seller?

correct and id buy them from them again anytime...
Not sure if Alibaba at the end just couldn't care less about me, to work on a solution between me and the seller and tried to make me give up and at the end charge their seller anyways or if they absorbed the charge back? But I am not blocked on Alibaba.

 

[ephestione]

I was about to conclude the order with Sandy Zou of Docan for the 304AH EVE cells, but when I asked her to get the yellow and green spreadsheet from Docan regarding the cells that I will buy, she told me that it would raise the cell price to 141USD per cell, like wtf? Isn't that standard issuance for every cell coming out of EVE?

 

[ephestione]

I learnt from this forum that the green and yellow spreadsheet is only send to dealers from EVE only for grade A cells, not grade B which are what Docan sells. I made Sandy explicitly add in contract that cells are brand new, with unmodified original QR code, flat surfaced, and testing at least 304Ah, and just made the payment, gross total little more than 47c per Ah, which makes it 145quids/kWh.

 

[Warpspeed]

So you expect to receive fully tested cells complete with the test report, but are not prepared to pay extra for all the testing and extra work involved.

 

[ephestione]

So you expect to receive fully tested cells complete with the test report, but are not prepared to pay extra for all the testing and extra work involved.

I did not say that.
I said that, as per some posts I've read in here, I expected to receive the spreadsheet that EVE releases out of the factory with test results for each cell they produce, which, as I expected, was already existing in the first place, so why pay to get a file attachment, right?
THEN, by reading some other posts in here, I understood that said spreadsheet is released by EVE only for those cells that pass the grade A tests, so no spreadsheet for me since I do not want to pay any premium to have someone test cells that I will be testing on arrival anyway.

What I do expect though, is that I will still receive brand new 304+ Ah cells, no matter the grade they are. Do I ask too much.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

What I do expect though, is that I will still receive brand new 304+ Ah cells, no matter the grade they are. Do I ask too much.

Good luck with that. Make sure you test every single one of them.