Promising alternative to loud generator - Upstart Power UpGen NXG fuel cell

[Samsonite801]

This looks promising...

Engineer775:

Has anyone else seen any other install videos on this yet? An NG/LPG reformer > Hydrogen fuel cell, can parallel up to 5 units, a little spendy, but great potential alternative to a loud generator.

 

[cypress]

There is a Pennsylvania company also making fuel cells. I like the idea of capturing heat from the FC for my house while also generating electricity. Not sure if heat capture is possible.

Solid Oxide Fuel Cell Systems | WATT Fuel Cell

WATT Fuel Cell innovates distributed energy technologies with residential fuel cell, remote power fuel cells, and mobile power fuel cell options.

wattfuelcell.com

 

[timselectric]

Cool , but too expensive.

 

[Recovering EE]

What's the maintenance interval on the FC stack?

 

[Rednecktek]

How would you refuel that when you're out boondocking?

 

[timselectric]

How would you refuel that when you're out boondocking?

It runs on propane. Assume natural gas too.

 

[Quattrohead]

So should I call my propane powered generator trailer a fuel cell too?

 

[timselectric]

So should I call my propane powered generator trailer a fuel cell too?

If the muffler can make it silent, sure.

 

[Samsonite801]

What's the maintenance interval on the FC stack?

Right at about 6:45 in the video, he states that it has a lifetime filter in it and "there is no maintenance on this unit".. So not sure if Upstart was who told him that or is his own assumption or whatever..

EDIT: At 9:20 in the video on 'final thoughts', he also says again "it is a maintenance-free unit"..

In the comments of that video, Upstart Power indicated the following information about warranty:

"Product Warranty (Upgen NXG Fuel Cell): 10 years or 2,000 runtime hours or 250 on/off cycles - which ever comes first"

 

[Recovering EE]

They show it on the side of a house.

250 on-off cycles isn't very many, so I guess you could just leave it on?

Oops! Nope! 2,000 run-time hours is 12 weeks.

Promising? I don't think so.

 

[wpns]

They show it on the side of a house.

250 on-off cycles isn't very many, so I guess you could just leave it on?

Oops! Nope! 2,000 run-time hours is 12 weeks.

Promising? I don't think so.

So you can turn it on every couple of weeks for 8 hours and still be in warranty.

Output? "34KW per day" doesn't fill me with confidence. Ah, 1600W, so 34KWHR/day. Times 2000 hours is 3.2MWHR. For $8K, or $2.50/KWHR, plus the price of the propane. You can buy a lot more solar panels for $8K...

I'd be interested in knowing the efficiency of propane->KWHR compared to an ICE generator running on propane.

 

[faultcurrent]

If you want to see what's going on in home fuel cells Japan is a good place to start.

 

[qaggaz]

So you can turn it on every couple of weeks for 8 hours and still be in warranty.

Output? "34KW per day" doesn't fill me with confidence. Ah, 1600W, so 34KWHR/day. Times 2000 hours is 3.2MWHR. For $8K, or $2.50/KWHR, plus the price of the propane. You can buy a lot more solar panels for $8K...

I'd be interested in knowing the efficiency of propane->KWHR compared to an ICE generator running on propane.

They claim 0.13 gallons of propane per kWh. So, about the same as diesel in volume (and, since propane and diesel price per gallon is about the same where I live, about the same cost).

If they could get more longevity out of the platform, it would be an interesting option. I think they see their market as all of the folks who buy standby propane generators that only see use during a prolonged power outage. Not my application. For me, if the system could run continuously for 30/60/90 days in the dark days of an Alaskan winter and last for 10 years, I would buy two.

 

[Samsonite801]

For me, I mainly try to use generator power at very minimum levels as possible, For now in its initial release, I would hope something like this would be more for last resort use for when it's overcast and poor solar on occasions.

I don't really like to burn propane at all since the Sun energy is free. For now, this is too expensive for me, but show more the promise for future movement, in the sense that it shows the industry is moving forward and this tech is finally rippling out to the consumer markets.

The price is very likely to come down over the years as these units become more widespread and more competing companies are selling them in tandem. I'm sure once people start to take them apart and learn to service them, it will be more common for people to run them 24/7 and simply do self-service, parts cleaning and component replacement to get longer service life out of of them, they will evolve into something more practical for long term in residential constant-duty applications.

 

[seneysolar]

$8000 for a 1600w generator

I like the idea but man.... the price isnt there yet.

 

[Dagoth Ur Does Solar]

$8000 for a 1600w generator

I like the idea but man.... the price isnt there yet.

At that price, if I cared about noise levels and needed a generator, I'm just buying the most quiet dual fuel inverter unit I can and building a generator box and a muffler for it...

Then I'm using my other $6000+ on something else.

 

[wpns]

They claim 0.13 gallons of propane per kWh.

Still over a buck a KWHR for me in fuel costs, plus the $2.50 for the box. I can get a lot of batteries and panels for that kind of money...

 

[Quattrohead]

I can get a lot of batteries and panels

Is always the answer

 

[qaggaz]

Still over a buck a KWHR for me in fuel costs, plus the $2.50 for the box. I can get a lot of batteries and panels for that kind of money...

A gallon of propane is $8 where you live?

 

[wpns]

A gallon of propane is $8 where you live?

On my island a 20# tank fill is $80(?), on the main island it’s only $20 but that also costs $50 worth of boat fuel and a $100 car rental, so it needs to get amortized with a full day trip to so-called civilization.

 

[azazel1024]

Still over a buck a KWHR for me in fuel costs, plus the $2.50 for the box. I can get a lot of batteries and panels for that kind of money...

Or the efficiency. A small EFI gas inverter generator can hit a bit over 6kwh a gallon on gas (close to 7kwh/G). Yeah, propane is lower energy density than gas is, but this is hitting 7.69kwh/G. At $8k. Yes, it is silent.

A small inverter EFI gas generator does not have all of the fancy bells and whistles that could really increase the efficiency even more. Last I checked, EFI generators (in the portable size) are not running things like O2 sensors and MAF/MAP sensors, etc. They could be made quite a bit more efficient for not all that much expense. Probably not that hard to design one to hit 9kwh/G. Or a propane fuel injected generator with all of the bells and whistles at around 7kwh/G (or more). Yeah, it would be a lot more expensive, but WAY less than $8k. And a lot more power density.

I do kind of wish someone would come back out with a ~1000w propane only generator.

Anyway, a gallon of propane has 27kwh of energy content. A good ICE can hit 35% efficiency (carb portable gas generators are very inefficient ICE). Taking out generator inefficiencies in electrical conversion, you'd still be talking 32% or so (figuring about a 92% generator efficiency). That is 8.62KWH a gallon on propane. Now, that'll take much higher compression ratios, MAF/O2, EFI, possibly liquid cooling.

Talk to me once this is at least hitting 40% conversion efficiency, or just build me a high efficiency portable propane only generator for a much more reasonable price hitting 7-8kwh a gallon.